What does a rich life actually mean? A conversation about money, fulfillment, time, and building a life aligned with what matters most.
Episode Summary
In this episode of Scripted Wealth: Money & Meaning for Pharmacists, Tim & Tim move beyond traditional financial planning conversations to explore the deeper connection between money, time, purpose, and fulfillment.
Many pharmacists spend years checking all the right boxes: earning the degree, building the career, paying off debt, saving for retirement, and growing their income, only to realize they still feel uncertain, disconnected, or stuck in the grind. In this conversation, Tim and Tim unpack what it means to build a financial plan that supports the life you truly want to live, not just the life you thought you were supposed to pursue.
Along the way, they share personal stories, pivotal life moments, reflections on work and identity, and practical ways to begin defining your own version of a “rich life.” The episode also explores how financial planning can create more flexibility, intentionality, and freedom to focus on what matters most in each season of life.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
- Why many high-achieving professionals still feel disconnected despite financial success
- The difference between building wealth and building a life aligned with your values
- How major life events often trigger deeper questions about time, work, and fulfillment
- Practical questions to help define your own version of a rich life
- Why meaningful experiences and relationships often matter more than financial optimization alone
Mentioned in Today’s Episode
- Die With Zero by Bill Perkins
- YFP Wealth: https://yfpwealth.com
Episode Transcript
[00:00:00]
Why Time Matters
Tim Baker, CFP®: it’s really about how we spend our time and our resources to do the things that matter most to us. And if we’re not doing that, we gotta figure that out.
Um, or we just waste this thing that we have called life and, and we only get one.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: I was, I
Tim Baker, CFP®: think about my.
Box Checking Burnout
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: Journey of going through pharmacy school. I’ve shared before on this podcast, graduated in 2008, did a year of residency, felt like I was checking all the boxes, right.
Got the degree, got the residency. Finally landed into that good income that I was very much waiting for while, while I was in school. Then she got the loans paid off. It was saving and investing for the future. We bought our first house, right? All of the things were happening. what I felt, and, and I suspect many of our listeners can relate to, there still was this sense of
Tim Baker, CFP®: Overwhelmed
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: on some level, financially, somewhat disconnected to, you know, why, why am I checking all these boxes?
Where,
Tim Baker, CFP®: work.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: actually going? [00:01:00] Um, and on unsure of, am I on track and are the decisions that we’re making financially actually the ones that we want to be making financially, are they intentional with where we’re trying to go and why we’re trying to go there? And I think that. It can be a common situation, right, where we’re grow, growing our income, or even perhaps growing our, our net worth, um, but still feel like something is missing.
And, and I think that something is missing is this connection to what we’re talking about and, and getting some clarity around what does it mean to be living our rich life. And how do we ultimately develop a financial plan to support
Tim Baker, CFP®: So
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: so let, let me
Defining a Rich Life
Tim Baker, CFP®: start here.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: When, when,
Tim Baker, CFP®: You hear the phrase,
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: rich life,
Tim Baker, CFP®: what?
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: what,
Tim Baker, CFP®: What does that mean?
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: to you?
How, how would you define that?
Tim Baker, CFP®: Man, it’s a great question. You know, I think for me is like, I’m talking Tim, Tim Baker, you know, I wake up, put pants on, go to the office. I, I think. Living a wealthy life today means like, am I [00:02:00] spending like my day and my time and my resources, how I want to, um, that, that’s basically what it comes down to.
And um, you know, I, when you were talking through this, you know, I was thinking about, you know, my upbringing and kind of how I traverse life. And then I’m thinking about like my kids, um, and we’re in our forties, so like there’s, there’s like levels to this, Tim. So like, let me, let me break this down.
Like I was taught, Hey, you’re a baker. We do good in school. Like you’re gonna get into the best college to hopefully get the best job. That means hopefully paying you a lot of money. And that’s what we do, right? That’s the expectation. And. For the most part, I was very compliant to that. I fell in line, right?
I didn’t buck the trend. [00:03:00] Out of the three of us, I have an older brother and a younger sister. I was probably the most rebellious out of the three, but I still colored within the lines more or less. Um. I did those things. I, I did well in school. I got into a good, a good school and then, you know, started kind of my career.
Not necessarily in financial services to start, but then eventually pivot, but I would say pivoted into financial services. For me, Tim was coloring outside the line lines a little bit because I left a six figure job with a great retirement, great benefits to basically start over again
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: Yep.
Tim Baker, CFP®: and start my own thing.
And I, you know, unlike you, I didn’t come from a family of entrepreneurs. Like we were taught the safe, the safe thing to do is to latch onto a big company, make a good income, and hopefully maximize the benefits and retirement and all that kind of stuff. It’s not to start from $0 of income and build from there.
And you know, I think that [00:04:00] when I was coloring in between the lines, so to speak, I don’t wanna say I was unhappy, but I was, I wasn’t. I wasn’t really questioning my reality until things happened in my life where it forced me to question my reality. Um, and that was more kind of on the personal side, less so on the professional side.
Um, so, you know, I, I, I, I kind of distill this down is like, you know, are the things that I’m doing in life, are they making me happy? Maybe is another way to, to put that. And again, like what I love to. Sit on the couch, drink bourbon, watch an Eagles game, you know, work out and, you know, not have a care in the wheel.
Absolutely. That would be nice, but eventually I would get bored of that. But like, you have to pay the bills, right? So there has to be a cross section where you know, you’re a, a functioning member of society, but, but maybe you’re, you know, you’re the things that you’re doing day in and day out, whether it’s professionally on the personal side, um, with family [00:05:00] passion projects.
Those have to be sprinkled in there too. Or if not, Nick, what’s the point?
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: Mm-hmm.
Tim Baker, CFP®: so I think about that from my own perspective, but then I think about it from, um, my kid’s perspective. And I would say at least my oldest doesn’t necessarily color in between the lines. Right? Like some of the things I, I, I see her do, I’m like, I would just never do this.
Or like, I would never be disruptive in class, Tim. Like I would, that, that would horrify me, right? Because of the expectation that was set. Um, and I just wouldn’t do that. And
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: mama Baker not gonna have
Tim Baker, CFP®: yeah, not gonna, she ain’t gonna have that. We’re not having that. And, um, you know, and I have to understand that, you know, my, my kids are not gonna be exactly like me, but also that, like, that, that doesn’t just go for someone that’s a preteen that’s like all the way through life.
And then I kind of extrapolate that this, you know, a little bit further of like, the source of discontent that I see with younger people. So I’m thinking people that are maybe 10 or [00:06:00] 15 years younger than us, Tim is, they’ve done all those things right?
They, and, and they, they’ve gotten the degree and the degree that they paid for was more than the degree that you paid for it. And you came out with six figures of income and salaries aren’t going up, and home prices are way up and interest rates are way up. And you’re like. What the heck mate? Like what?
Like, I, I’ve done all the things, right? And, and part of our financial success is timing. Like we, we just kind of came into the market at a good time. Not that it was easy, but you look at it today and that’s why you kind of see some of this discourse between like baby boomers and millennials, and Gen Z is, you know, like where we are at.
It. And not to say like baby boomers didn’t have, I mean, we had, you know, crises and things like that. Like when you live in the Cold War and there’s that, that, you know, that just dark feeling of like the world could be over tomorrow. That’s a different level of stress. But what my, [00:07:00] my point is, is that, you know, if you’re, if you’re coming out now, the, the cards are kind of stacked against you, um, in a lot of ways.
And then you overlay AI and things like that. So, um. I know this is kind of a rambling question, but I think like, you know, the way that I kind of distill this down is, you know, am are the things that I’m doing in life, the way I’m spending my time, the way I’m spending my resources, things that drive me, that, that make me happy, that,
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: You
Tim Baker, CFP®: you know, can sustain a life that I, that I love and I feel comfortable in.
Um, and if it’s not, then what am I doing about it? And I would say for a long time. Um, I would, if I wasn’t happy or, you know, I, it, it probably for a long time, like I live life unexamined. I just did the things I did because that was what I expected and I was always a critical thinker, but maybe not necessarily at the, at, on a personal level of like where I wanted to go to [00:08:00] school or what career I got into.
And, um, you know, I think it, it took major, um. You know, ups and downs in my life. Probably more so the downs that really caused me to take a breath and, you know, um, reflect
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: Mm-hmm.
Tim Baker, CFP®: the things that I was doing in my life and, and, and calibrate them more towards what I wanted to do, not what was expected of me.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: So glad that you mentioned just the reality that people are coming out in
Tim Baker, CFP®: Yeah.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: I, I, I think the risk we run in this conversation, just to put it on the table, is it’s, it’s a privileged conversation. Let, let’s call it for what it is, right? This concept of being able to have the flexibility of time and or resources.
You mentioned both of those things. Right to, on some level have choice of what you’re doing.
Tim Baker, CFP®: Yep.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: to diminish the hard work you’ve put in or I’ve put in to get there. I’m, I’m certainly gonna, you know, it’s important we recognize that it wasn’t, [00:09:00] you know, an easy, easy road and there was hard work that, that got put in to get there, and we need to honor that work. But it’s a privileged conversation and, and one that we believe is really, really important. But there may be people listening, uh, that whatever the circumstances are, and especially noting those that are coming out today, like. Hey, this is a great conversation, but I’m grinding, like I’m, I’m, I’m grinding, right?
I’ve got, you know, the average student loan debt. We, we talk about it all the time. A hundred, $175,000, right? Market. I bought my first house in 2011, 10 for $176,500, four bedroom house. That doesn’t exist
Tim Baker, CFP®: Right.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: You know, we’ve got four kids that are very, very expensive. But the costs, you know, certainly. You know, my, my soon to be 15-year-old, like obviously those costs are going up over time and having kids today is more expensive than it was when we had our oldest in 2011 and on and on and on. so as we talk about this concept of living a rich life, I, I do still think it’s very relevant. Regardless of where you’re at in stage [00:10:00] of career, because even when you’re grinding, it can be a source of, you know, motivation and something that we’re, we’re looking towards and pointing towards as a north star.
Tim Baker, CFP®: But,
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: it is worth acknowledging
Tim Baker, CFP®: and you know.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: there, there are a lot of steps that need to be put into place before we’re talking about this conversation of autonomy, of time and resources, uh, of what we can do with that.
I do wanna though ask, I mean, un unexamined really jumped off the page to me when you said that, Tim. Because I, I feel the same way when I look back at my own journey. The way I think about it is there was very much an an
Tim Baker, CFP®: Outside,
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: in type of approach that I was have having to my financial plan, meaning that it was,
Tim Baker, CFP®: you know.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: making financial decisions. Unexamined or without much thought or because this is what a pharmacist should be doing, or, or a home that I should be able to afford, right?
Or how I should be saving or investing during these, all these different types of things versus I think the, the conversation we’re having around defining what it means to be living a rich [00:11:00] life and hopefully putting a financial plan around that, that supports it, that’s very much an inside out type of approach versus an outside in. Right. We’re, we’re, we’re directing What does it mean? To us individually, why do we care about this topic of money? What are we hoping to accomplish or achieve? And from there we build the insight out to then make financial decisions based off of those values or based off of those, um, types of characteristics that we define, which probably will change also over time.
Tim Baker, CFP®: Absolutely will change. Yeah.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: hopefully from there we, we get the outcomes that we want.
Now, with that said, when, when you said unexamined, the first thought to my mind was, well, when did that shift happen? Right? Like, I’m curious to hear your thoughts, but for, for me, I, I remember vividly when, when my oldest Sam was born in twenty twenty eleven. Like time could have stood still at that moment, right? Like life was different before and after Sam, uh, in
Tim Baker, CFP®: terms of like this conversation
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: you know, of, of [00:12:00] flexibility, of time and being able to build a financial plan that we can have experiences as a family and not, not feeling like we’re in that constant state of stress, right?
All of that came to a different level of color. When we had our oldest Sam. I’m curious for you, like when you say. living a rich life is in, in part, you know, having some autonomy over your time, over your resources, over how you’re spending your days.
Like what, when, when did that shift happen or, or how did that evolution take place? I.
Tim Baker Turning Point
Tim Baker, CFP®: So, um, to be extremely vulnerable. You know, for me, my, wake up moment probably came right before, like right, right before I turned 30. Um. I was, I was in a relationship, um, I was living in Columbus, but then I took a job in California and um, I was in a long-term relationship, probably nine years [00:13:00] engaged.
Um, and you know, I think that, you know, I was, we were, we were living separately and I was the, the, the mindset that I had been in for a number of years. Was to really put my head down and climb the corporate ladder, whatever that looked like, to kind of justify my existence. So what do I mean by that? So my path is, is kind of odd in a sense that.
I graduated from West Point in 2005, but my military career never really took off because I was hurt and I was injured. And this was like right in the middle of a, you know, two, two theater war, Afghanistan, Iraq, you know, a lot of my classmates were going over there. A lot of ’em came, didn’t come back or didn’t come back, you know, in one piece.
And I just had this, so like as I was being medically boarded out because of the injury that [00:14:00] I sustained during a training exercise, like I. I, I, I don’t know if it was survivor guilt, depression, like I just felt like failure. And you know, to me the answer to that was not to deal with that, but to bury that and, you know, kind of build my resume up to kind of justify the education in the past.
You know, so like if I’m, if I’m managing, you know, I got into logistics, so if I’m managing an apartment of. 300 people, which, you know, I, I think at the time when I started it was like a hundred people. Like, that’s like a company command, right? You know, when I’m, you know, uh, five years in or whatever. So. My whole mindset was that and nothing else.
So nothing, um, health wise, nothing really even relationship wise. And, you know, at the time, like I was just driving my partner at the time away. And when that relationship ended, not by my choice, it [00:15:00] was almost like. Being woke, like being a like awoken from up like a, like a nightmare. Like, you know, and I’m, you know, just examined myself.
I was a ghost of myself, you know, really. So for me, that kind of reinvention of myself, um, really started there. And you know, it, I kind of, in that place and time in my life, I really. Really broke down, like the things that I would do, like will this make me happy or is this gonna, is this gonna add versus subtract?
And it kind of took me completely stepping away for a better part of a year, um, from, from life really, from like my career to figure out what that was and what I wanted to do. Um. And then really thinking about what I wanted to do. And you know, I actually landed on financial [00:16:00] advisor, financial planner, which may sound weird to somebody, but I, I had this moment where I mentioned my brother and my sister who are, you know, they’re four years apart and I’m in the middle.
And you know, I would say they talk, but not regularly, but probably within a span of 48 hours as I was kind of like narrowing it down to a number of profession. And I was talking to them and seeking counsel. Both of them had said like, Hey, we really think that you should go this route because of these reasons.
Um, you know, you’re a great teacher. People, people trust you, they like you. Um, we think that would be good for you. And I’m like, I think this is the universe, you know, telling me something. And I kind of decided to pivot that way and, you know, work for another firm. But really was continue to work on myself, on, you know, outside of the professional side.
So. You know, um, that that was, you know, so that kind of happened, you know, before I, I turned 30, or as I was turned 30 into my early thirties,
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: Mm-hmm.
Tim Baker, CFP®: um, that it really, you know, is like, I was never gonna allow like [00:17:00] my career or that expectation of what I should be doing or the pressure that I put on myself to dictate.
You know, my, my actions, and I feel like for a long time I did. And, and that was a choice too. Like I felt all the emotions and things because of, you know, the, the, the accident that I had. But to me that that’s kind of what it boils down to. And you know, for me, like. I haven’t looked back from that. And you know, did I work a lot when I was starting out?
Especially when I started script Financial. Financial, absolutely. But I always kind of make the joke is like it never felt like work. Whereas everything before this has always felt like work and there was ups and downs and you put the time in, but. You know, one of the things I’m proud of is like, we’ve built this company over 10 years and like we’ve worked hard, but like, I’m not working 80 hours a week.
You know, I’m not like, I’m home for dinner every night, you know? Like I, yeah, I’m not necessarily working, I’m not working weekends.
You know, and I don’t think I’ve ever gotten into this, this deep of detail, like on the [00:18:00] podcast, but for me, like when, when we talk about living a wealthy life, like I take that to heart because for a good decade of my life, it was really by someone else’s sheet of music.
Um, I would say.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: Yeah. And I think what’s interesting, we, we obviously have two very different journeys, but the, the common thread that’s coming up for me is, and centers around the topic here is, you know, we spend so much time building the career or the life was what we thought was supposed to be, what we want or what we should have done.
And then there’s a moment or a series of moments. Or life events or things that happen that kind of shake us to get to this point of asking is, is all that I’m building actually aligning with the life that. I want to live. And, and what are those things that are most important to me or to my family?
And how do we arrive at that, you know, decision. And I, I very much, you know, like in your journey, I even think about the decision going to pharmacy school and even
Tim Baker, CFP®: [00:19:00] Yeah.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: I spent in pharmacy school and the decision to do residency, all, all of it, has served a really important path going into the academic space and,
Tim Baker, CFP®: Right.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: know, working crazy hours to publish articles and get promoted and all that. I mean. I don’t regret any of that, but it was very much an outside in type of living. I was living my day in and out, out of, you know, expectations of what I should be doing. And then life happens. And it’s like, wait a minute. Are all these things that I’ve been building all the boxes that’ve been checking?
Am I actually the life that I want to live? And, and, and then you peel back the onion and well, what, what does that actually mean? Right? And, and how do we define what that is? You have a, a lot of
Tim Baker, CFP®: Conversation. Um.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: With prospective clients, Tim. And so I’m just curious from those conversations, even thinking about one here in the last couple weeks of, you know, clients that are coming on board that are in, in the middle of their career, um, and kind of at that point of like, Hey, we’ve been doing this for a while now and feels a little bit like a grind and maybe we wanna make some [00:20:00] different decisions or have some flexibility or autonomy of our time and we’ve got a young family and we wanna treasure this season of life and, and not just let it pass by. So what, what are the moments that you typically hear that lead to this transition point? And again, not a singular event always, but what are those things? Because I think for some people it could be very early in their career. For other people it might be that they’re nearing retirement
Tim Baker, CFP®: And you know.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: some of these deeper questions are coming to the surface and everything in between.
Like what, what are those life events that typically get people to this point of, of asking some of these questions around what, what does it actually mean to be living my rich life?
Client Wake Up Moments
Tim Baker, CFP®: Yeah, I mean, some recent conversations that you kind of alluded to is, you know, centered around things like, man, I kind of like what you were saying. Like, I’ve been working and, and saving, you know, my whole life, my whole career. You know, I’m kind of maybe approaching the midway part or right there and, and, um.
You know, I, I, I’d love to retire [00:21:00] early, but I don’t really know what that looks like. And, um, you know, comments like, I’m, I’m, I’m working my rear end off, but we’re not spending enough time or m money on the things that, like today, like, I’m not enjoying life today. Um, and that’s heart. It’s heartbreaking to hear Tim, you know, and, and, um, you know, I think, I think the, the positive side of that is.
Like they’ve recognized that, right?
Whereas, and I always tell this analogy and I don’t know if it’s a great or this, I dunno if the analogy of the story, I don’t know if it’s a great one, but you know, when I was in logistics, I would get to the warehouse, the office at five o’clock in the morning. I leave at five o’clock at night, 30 minute drive each way in the dark.
I would drive there, drive, you know, work all day, drive home. I couldn’t, wouldn’t, couldn’t tell you the drive. I couldn’t remember any of the drive. It was just autopilot.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: Yeah.
Tim Baker, CFP®: I [00:22:00] think that can be life if you don’t stop and ask these questions. So I think, like for some of these, um, couples that I talked to.
They, they have asked these que they’ve come to that realization of like, Hey, something’s not right and we need to make a change. And I think a good jumping off point for those changes, obviously, is to get on the same page with your spouse, but then it’s also look at your, your finance, your finances and say like, do we have room for me to go part-time so I can spend more time with our, our son or our daughter?
Can I, can I be a stay at home mom or a stay at home dad? Like, is that in the cards? Like how’s that gonna affect the long term? You know, I, I think with a little bit of planning, you’d be surprised at what you can accomplish, things that you might think impossible, um, you know, when we actually project things out or like they’re doable and, you know, so it’s things like, it is things like, you know, kind of get into that, um, stage of your career.
Like, man, I’ve been doing this for 10, 15, 20 years. Like, what am I doing? It could be having kids, like [00:23:00] you said, I, you know, one of the, one of the crystallizing moments for me, and I’ve talked about this in the past is, you know, when we. We were kind of looking at, you know, we’ve been saving and you know, for a while and we were looking at potentially buying like a another rental property and we’ve been talking about our motor home and I’m like, well, maybe we should just wait for retirement.
And then I’m like, I was just thinking about our family. And I’m like, man, like with our oldest, I forgot how old she was at the time, but like we only have. Yeah, six years, eight years of like when mom and dad are cool and we can travel in close proximity. That is so fleeting, right? So like once I said that to my wife, she’s like, let’s do it.
Right? So like.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: like
Tim Baker, CFP®: It could be things like that, right? So I, you know, it could be a just a big trip or maybe it is a big promotion. I think for me, you know, I thought about, like, again, I told my story and kind of trying to climb the corporate ladder and get promoted and make more money and bonus and things like that.
And the picture I have in my head, it’s [00:24:00] almost like a wily coyote like cartoon where I’m the coyote or I’m somebody and I’m on like. I’m mountainside and I’m running along like a curved cliff and there’s a carrot in front of me and I just can’t get it. And I’m just like, I’m going, I’m not going over the edge.
I’m just, and, and that’s like, that’s, that’s how I pictured my life, you know? So. It could be empty nesters, you know, that kind of like, okay, what do we do now? It could be, Hey, I’m transitioning away from full-time work. Like my, my identity and role as a pharmacist are kind of not melded anymore. Um, so it’s different for everyone.
And I think obviously the sooner the better. You know, my, my brother calls this like being switched on. That’s kind of his parlance like, like kind of really. Introspective of, you know, the, the things around you and kind of, you know, like, like, like plugged in. And, but in this case, I think if you think about Matrix, it’s almost like you’re unplugging yourself, right?
Um, but [00:25:00] I, I would say those are some of the things that have come up in terms of like, hey, this is kind of the, the light bulb moment, the aha moment, you know, for, for me to say, you know, to examine at least am I doing the things that I want to do? And if I’m not, like what am I doing about it? And that can be a very.
Scary conversation to have with yourself. It could be a very scary conversation to have with your spouse. Like, Hey, I’m been an engineer my whole life now I wanna be a pilot. Like, what? Like that doesn’t, that doesn’t compute. Um, and it could be a scary thing to kind of open yourself up to. A financial planner if you get that far right.
So, um, these are not con, these conversations are not easy because it all, it, it often leads to, at least in my, in my situation, to unlearn the things that I’ve learned. And I’ve even heard,
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: You
Tim Baker, CFP®: you know, people in my family, my kids, you know, my nieces and nephew kind of.
Money Isn’t Success
Tim Baker, CFP®: Espouse that like, I need to get the [00:26:00] highest paying job because that’s what success is.
And it, and it really isn’t. Does it help things out? Yeah, it does. But if you’re making $200,000 and your, and your net worth is $3 million and you’re miserable, what is the freaking point? It, it, it, what’s the point? Right? So, um, and it’s kind of the, you know, it’s kind of like, you know, I wa you know, Scrooge, I watch that every year.
It’s kind of the tale as old as time is like. You know, wealth is not ones and zeros in your bank account. It’s not, it’s part of the equation. Yes. Um, but it’s really about how we spend our time and our resources to do the things that matter most to us. And if we’re not doing that, we gotta figure that out.
Um, or we just waste this thing that we have called life and, and we only get one.
Unlearning the Grind
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: When you said unlearning some of this, Tim, it, it was reminding me of something that I’m working through in real time, like in my, in my forties, like [00:27:00] un unlearning. And I think pharmacy school is probably, know, if I could put some blame somewhere, like partly responsible for this of like, I, I, I have over time developed this. Belief that if I’m not working my butt off, if I’m not working hard and grinding, like I’m not of value, right? That’s a story that I’ve, I’ve learned over many, many, many years. Um,
Tim Baker, CFP®: So I
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: that, and this very much connects to living a rich life in the financial plan, unlearning that it, it’s very real.
And you know, the visual that was coming to mind as you were describing yours is the, the myth of Sisyphus. And it’s almost like I’m, I’m pushing that boulder up a hill. Or trying to, and not being very successful. And all the while it’s like on the wrong hill. Like it, I don’t even need to be on that hill.
Like
Tim Baker, CFP®: right.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: a totally different hill.
Defining Your Rich Life
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: And what I’ve realized, it’s like I had this belief in my mind that in order to, you know, live your rich life, be financially independent, whatever you wanna call it, is, it was gonna require huge amounts of [00:28:00] dollars. And is like, I’ve asked some of the questions of what does it mean to be living my own, my own rich life. It, it doesn’t often take a ton of financial resources or not even what I would have expected it to be.
So for example, for for our family, one of the things we’ve identified like, we love, love going to sporting events as a family. Like, and some of these are a splurge, right? It’s like, Hey, let, we’re gonna go to the local, you know, professional soccer team.
We’re gonna, we’re gonna sit front row, but the splurge might be $300, $400. And, and I don’t take that for granted, but that isn’t changing the trajectory of our net worth or the progress we’re making on other goals, but. It wasn’t until, and, and you played a huge role in this, it wasn’t until really more concretely defining like what are the things that are most important and what do they actually cost and what’s the opportunity cost of not investing in them? It wasn’t until getting to that level of detail that there was almost the permission to like see it for actually what it is. You know?
I was [00:29:00] even thinking about a moment this past weekend I was out on the driveway playing with the boys and. We like to play, uh, whiffle ball, baseball in the driveway. And I was like, gimme the ball, right? Lemme have the ball. And so I, I started throwing as hard as I could, I mean, as hard as I could. We’ve got like a, a backstop, so we’re not arguing over
Tim Baker, CFP®: Oh, Terry, your Achilles. Tim, please don’t, Terry. Yeah,
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: let’s gonna be
Tim Baker, CFP®: yeah,
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: cuff.
Tim Baker, CFP®: yeah.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: we’re, we’re not arguing over strikes and balls.
If it hits, if it hits the backstop, it’s a strike, right? So I told them, I said, Hey, each of you are gonna get three strikes. All right, if any one of you hits this full speed, it was a tennis ball, full speed tennis ball. Any one of you were going out and getting frosties like tonight?
Tim Baker, CFP®: Oh yeah.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: All
Tim Baker, CFP®: Yeah.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: Um, so we go from youngest to oldest, right? So EE every bro is trying to establish credibility with, with the other bros. So we go, Bennett, you know, he actually comes really close, doesn’t get one. Uh, and then Everett had a shot, and then Levi, you know, cranks one, and they are screaming in the neighborhood,
Tim Baker, CFP®: League by Got. League by. Got a hold of one.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: got well, got a
Tim Baker, CFP®: Oh man.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: [00:30:00] screaming in
Tim Baker, CFP®: They’re like jumping around like per, oh man, it’s awesome.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: get the frosties and the, I think the bill was 1250 or
Tim Baker, CFP®: Best. Best frosty they ever tasted.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: Totally.
Tim Baker, CFP®: Yeah.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: like, these are the moments, like these are the things that we’re gonna be talking about. And I think it’s really getting clear on like, what does this mean for you, right?
The inside out versus the outside in. And then how do we develop the plan to actually support that and what does that mean for the rest of the financial plan? Right?
I’m thinking of another couple where, you know, they love to travel and I talked with ’em a couple weeks ago.
And you know, the goal is, hey, we wanna take five to six trips per year in retirement. Traveling is our rich life, but we also wanna make sure and feel confident we can do it with the peace of mind that we’re not gonna run outta money.
Tim Baker, CFP®: Right, right.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: Um, and just having the plan around that to support it, to enjoy those things without the stress or the worry, you know, I think is really the value. And so what, what are the, for somebody who’s listening, I’m thinking of a couple groups of people, you know, someone who says, Hey, I, I know what my [00:31:00] rich life is, but I’m just in the grind right now and it’s kind of head down to, to build these foundational blocks so I can eventually lift my head up. then there’s others that, that might be hearing this saying. sure. Right. I, I, I don’t know what that is or I haven’t, you know, given the space to allow these questions to come to the surface, what are one or two questions that you could throw out there that would help people start to just go a li little bit deeper or layer deeper of what, what might be these things for them individually?
Kinder Three Questions
Tim Baker, CFP®: Yeah, so I think, I think, you know, we, we go through this in our third meeting on the roadmap, you know, scripter plan, and we go through the kinder three questions, which we have talked about in the past, um, to kind of build the foundation for this conversation. So the first question on the three questions is, um.
You know, let’s assume that you’re, you’re financially secure, you know that, you know, all your needs are taken care of today and, and in the [00:32:00] future, what would you do? What would you be, um, you know, and, and really allow the space to, to dream a little bit. Um, and you know, we, we, we talk through that. We give each partner kind of the.
The space to, um, express themselves. I think this is better. We, we kind of do it like this, um, you know, virtually and, and kind of, we, we give our clients the questions that, you know, I think allows them to think through it. I think, I think the best scenario, um, when I do kind of a deeper dive in life planning with, with certain clients is to actually sit in a quiet room and, and write these down.
’cause that you can really reflect, um. But you know, then we move to the question of like, okay, now let’s assume, um, we’re at your current level of wealth, but you have five to 10 years left to live. You don’t know when you’ll pass away. Within those ti five to 10 years, you’ll be healthy enough to do the things that you want to do [00:33:00] in that timeframe.
Um, but we’re, we’re putting a time limit on your, your life and how does that change? Your answers, what, you know, what would you do, what would you be? Um, and then we kind of transitioned to the, hey, you, you found out today that, you know, um, today’s your last day. You know, and, and this is less about like what would you do on your last day and, and more of reflection on what did you miss, what did you not yet become?
Um. And, and really zero in on this question. Right. And you know, I think the interesting thing about having done probably hundreds of these types of meetings, um, is that last question. It it’s not a money question at all, really. Um, and, and really a lot of the, the, the content of the answers are not money questions.[00:34:00]
So.
You know, we, we talk about living a, we a wealth, a wealthy life today and a wealthy life tomorrow. And I think because we’re financial planners, the assumption is that we’re talking about being a seven figure pharmacist and making that six figure income and all that kind of, all that good stuff. And, you know, we, we’ve kind of talked about, you know, there should be balance between that and the, the qualitative stuff of like, man, if today was my last day, like I, I wish.
I would’ve spent more time with my dad and with my mom. I wish I would’ve spent more time with my kids. I wish I would’ve took that trip, you know, to au Australia that I’ve been talking about for 10 years and I’ve never done. Um, so there’s resources and, you know, so there are resources involved with this.
It’s your time, it’s your plane ticket. Um, it’s all that stuff, but it’s, it’s actually not a lot. Right? It’s, it’s not, and. You know, to me the questions are designed to really dig deep and it’s [00:35:00] not like, oh, like what are your goals for your investment portfolio? Or like, you know, what do you think you’re gonna do in retirement?
Like. That’s boring. Right? And it’s very surface. Like we want to go deep and um, and I think it’s a place that you have to be comfortable with, right? You have to be, you know, vulnerable, um, you know, maybe outta your comfort zone. And, and you know, we, we tell clients like when we kick off our relationship, the more you share with us, the better we can serve you.
You know? And,
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: Yeah.
Tim Baker, CFP®: um, you know, I think sometimes people are hesitant to work with financial planners. Because they don’t want to be judged, right? Like, you know, maybe their dream is not to be, um, a pharmacist. Maybe their dream is to be a singer or an artist or something like that. Um, I think that’s great. You know, at the end of the day, I want you to be passionate about what you’re doing.
Um, and I wanna make sure that you’re okay financially as well, right? [00:36:00] Like, those are things, but, you know, I, I would say this quantitative and qualitative. Balance. I don’t think it is a balance. I think, I think it’s the qualitative things that matter most. We happen to be professionals in the quantitative, and we want to make sure that, but the, the conversation is often driven somewhere else.
So I think our job as we, as we, as we work with clients is, is to examine the balance sheet and kind of where they’re, take that snapshot of where they’re at financially. It’s to ask those deeper questions about their life plan and, and, and position the financial plan to support that, and then to hold you accountable to that.
Right? So, you know, I make the joke that, you know, um. When I got into bourbon, you know, there’s nowhere in my financial plan or in my goal setting that I need to lead, lead the league in, in bottles of bourbon. Right. But if you look at some of my spending, especially, you know, as I got into it, I’m like, oh man, I’m spending more, more money on that [00:37:00] than I need to.
Right? It’s, it’s, for me, it’s more about are you having those experiences with your family? And like you said, that you need to, like, are you doing daddy daughter date night? Are you calling your brother And seeing how he’s doing and playing Xbox and catch up with him.
You know, are you, um, going on date night with your wife? Are you doing bro night with Liam? All of those things, like those cost, money and time, but they’re not necessarily major needle movers in, in, in regard to that. So I think our job in life is to hold up the mirror. So in my case, Hey Tim, like nowhere in your financial plan does it say you need to lead the league in bourbon, bourbon bottles, but that’s where you’re spending a lot of your resources.
Maybe let’s do some of these other things that you, that you’ve talked about, and if those things are not important anymore, which things change. Right? You know, there’s seasons of life things that I would’ve, you know, thought 10 years ago. I’m like, I’m not even concerned about that anymore. I would just say, Hey, um, I don’t, that’s not a passion of mine anymore.
And that’s okay. Um, [00:38:00] so what are those passions? And let’s redirect the plan to that, right? Because we’re not static, you know, and it’s not about a plan. It’s about planning. And to me, I think coupling that introspection with the actual implementation of the plan is really, really important.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: Yeah, I think.
You know, you’re talking about the quantitative, qualitative, and, and people often come to us with the quantitative questions,
Tim Baker, CFP®: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: Am I, am, am I on track for retirement? You know, when should I, um, make a claiming decision around social security? Um, you know, should I do Roth conversions? Do I have the
Tim Baker, CFP®: Yeah.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: allocation?
All all these technical questions. And just to be clear, as you, as you said, right, what we’re suggesting is that those are table stakes for what a financial plan should be doing. All those questions are worthwhile questions that need to be answered. What often doesn’t get enough attention is everything else that we’re talking about here, because at the end of the day, the whole purpose of the plan is to support these other areas that we’re talking [00:39:00] about.
And, and, uh, I’m convinced that while people come with the technical questions, the reason they stay and will remember the work that we’re doing will be to really lean into the qualitative side of the plan. Right? So, you know, when we, when we look ahead and it’s all said and done. And we look backwards.
We’re not gonna remember the Roth conversions. We’re not gonna remember, you know, did we optimize the asset allocation and rebalance the portfolio? Whatever is
Tim Baker, CFP®: Did you max out your 401k? Right. You’re not gonna, like, that’s not gonna be the things on your deathbed. And, and I don’t know if you’ve ever watched this, Tim. I’ll, I’ll see some, some, sometimes these, um. These videos on, on YouTube where someone will be in the street with a microphone and they’ll, they’ll,
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: Yeah.
Tim Baker, CFP®: you know, they’ll be on the street and they’ll interview someone that is obviously a little bit longer in the tooth and, you know, maybe in their eighties or nineties or whatever, and they, they will ask questions of like, what would you have done differently in.
You know, very often it’s like, man, I, I, I [00:40:00] wouldn’t have worked so much or wor worked so hard. Um, or I, I would’ve, you know, maybe retired earlier or, or traveled while was more able bodied or, you know, you know, so yeah, like the things that we stress out about, are they important? Yeah, of course. They’re important.
Right. And I think, I think, you know, having a plan to examine, you know, the, the way the pharmacist brain, well, the way humans. Kind of operate. They, they, they want, they just wanna know if they’re okay. Right. I think the way the pharmacist brain works is they wanna know they’re okay, but then they want to see the data that shows that they’re okay.
Right. And I feel like that’s a major gap with most financial planners is they’ll look at it and be like, Tim, you’re okay.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: okay.
Tim Baker, CFP®: And you know, for some people they’re like. Hey, I like the binary up or down, like that’s good with me. A lot of pharmacists are like, okay, but like, show me that I’m okay. And that’s the work that we do is like, all right, if we wanna do five trips a year and [00:41:00] that budget is 30 grand, or whatever the heck it is.
Let’s take 30 grand per year out of the plan and we’ll see how that changes things. Right? Um, we’ll do our 10,000, you know, simulations and, and we’ll show you. Alright. We were at an 84% success rate, that we’re gonna have money in the plan at the end, age 95. Now we’re at a 81% with that or whatever it is.
And then, are there other things that we, we can adjust? So this is really the nerdy. Maybe scratching a pharmacist’s, you know, itch in terms of like seeing the data and how things balance and things like that. I think a lot of financial planners are just like, you’re good, right? And, and if it, if we’re not good, we’ll adjust, but we’re kind of just.
You know, sticking our finger in the air and being like, okay, I think we’re okay. Like, we want to actually show the data. And again, we don’t have a crystal ball. We can’t predict the future, the market, the economy, things like that. But we can get pretty darn close with, you know, just running multiple simulations and, and what that looks like.
[00:42:00] So I think for the pharmacist, they like that. Right. And you know, if I. Can be told I’m okay, and then overlay more of the, the qualitative stuff to that. That’s, that’s transformation. Right. That’s where, that’s where the magic happens. Right. And to your point, like you’re not, you know. Our clients are like, oh, you know, they’re not gonna say like, oh, you know, on their death.
But I’m so glad that Tim Baker told me to, to maximize my Roth IRA in episode 200 of the YFP podcast. They’re, it’s gonna be more like, I’m just glad that I took that trip or I had the experiences with my family. And to your point, you know, I want to comment on this, like, like in, in our, our brains are, are both built this way, I think, um.
But like that wiffle ball, frosty, that’s like core memory, right? And I can see the boys jacking each [00:43:00] other up and you know, jumping around and being excited by that. Um, and I think the way that our brains work is, and, and, and we, in our core values. We celebrate wins because the way that we’re wired is like we achieve something and a lot of pharmacists will, will you just onto the next thing.
You don’t even like take in the fact that, you know, whatever it is, it’s like I just accomplished this. I just, you know, got through pharmacy school, passed my boards, got this promotion the way that you and I are wired. It’s like, well we expected that so it’s on to the next thing and no, like we really should.
Stop, acknowledge that and be grateful for that. Right. And for, for, for, I think we do a much better job than when we first started doing this 10 years ago. ’cause I think we, we recognize it’s a weakness of ours and we build it into our culture and [00:44:00] we kind of force that. And it’s not forced, like it’s kind of second nature now, but like that, that.
Little, you know, time that you spent and dollars that you spent will, you know, in the words of the gladio echo into eternity because it’s just awesome. Like, it’s just like, you know, the day, oh man, I, I, I hit my dad’s heater and this is the, the tastiest frosty ever. Right. And like, like those are the moments right.
To your point. And they, and they’re so freaking fleeting and
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: Yeah.
Tim Baker, CFP®: don’t wanna miss that. Right. You know? So, um.
Planning for Seasons
Tim Baker, CFP®: Yeah, I just, I just wanna say that out loud because I think that, you know, so much of this conversation can be centered around, we talk about this with the, with the phases of life and financial plan.
It’s like you don’t arrive anywhere. There’s no arrival. It’s just the next chapter in the book. Um, even when you go, I think so much in financial [00:45:00] services is like. I’m re, I’m 65, I’m retiring, like I’ve arrived. And then you get there and you’re like, what did I do? Or like, what am I doing? Or Who am I? And um, so, you know, every, you know, I, I think about this at with Zoe, who’s two, you know, I, I, you know, every, it seems like every week or every month there’s something that she’s no longer doing that.
We’ll never have again ’cause we’re not having kids anymore. Right. And part of me is exhausted and being like, oh great. Like we don’t have to worry about that anymore. But part of me is like, man, she’s not a baby anymore. She’s like, she’s. Becoming a person and she has her own opinion. And so like, and that’s every stage of life, right?
Like, you know, some people really struggle when their kids, you know, leave and they’re empty nesters. Some people really struggle when they transition from working 40 hours a week or 50 hours a week to like, [00:46:00] now they’re not, you know, and they’re not the big cheese or, you know, the, the boss or things like that.
So, um, it’s just, you know, being, being content where your feet are and, you know, it’s, it’s, I think that’s part of. You know, living a wealthy life today.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: Again, to echo what you said, right there is no arrived, you know, with the
Tim Baker, CFP®: Right
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: And I had, I’ve been reminded of that over and over again. You know, first starting with the journey to pay off the student loans and then achieving certain investing goals or other
Tim Baker, CFP®: net worth and.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: way. Yeah, there, there is no arrived.
I, I will say the closest thing I think too, what I have experienced has arrived. Is what you’re talking about is to actually slow down in those moments, to feel those moments, to reflect on those moments and to lock them in. I mean, what, what, what Bill Perkins about Diet With Zero is their, the experience dividend. Like if, if we can actually be present to slow down and experience those in that moment, that that is the rich life in the, in those moments, to actually feel those and experience those and to remember those, you know, over time.
Tim Baker, CFP®: [00:47:00] Yeah.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: as, as we wrap up, I, I, I’ve made a list here of some categories for our listeners to think about if they’re, you know, trying to get some ideas of what, what might this mean for them individually.
And again, everyone’s situation different, right? So it could be time for freedom. be, you know, having some control over calendar or an option to work less or take a sabbatical or, or part-time off. Um, it could be some additional flexibility, changing roles, relocating, maybe leaving, leaving a lesson.
Ideal job situation. could be an investment around health, physical health, mental health, um, relationships and family quality, time with family being present, being closer to family, if that’s a priority. Could be experiences often is experiences that we hear, travel, hobbies. Creating memories could be giving back, volunteering, mentoring, right? All, all of these things, again, some of the questions that you outline are really there to, to not tell anyone what should be their rich life. To help them reflect upon that and to to self-discover it so that we can then the [00:48:00] financial plan to support it. And at the end of the day, that’s what we’re trying to do with the financial plan.
Can we get clear on
Tim Baker, CFP®: Easy.
Tim Ulbrich, PharmD: means to be living our rich life today, tomorrow? It’s not a one and done. This isn’t Kentucky basketball, right? We’re gonna continue to evaluate this over time. That may change, like we will change. And then how do we evolve the financial plan to support that rich life along the way?
Tim Baker, great stuff, uh, as always. And, uh, we’ll, we’ll be back at it here in a couple weeks.
Tim Baker, CFP®: Yeah, look forward to it, Tim. Thanks.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Scripted Wealth, money and Meaning for pharmacists. If you enjoyed the conversation, be sure to subscribe. Leave us a rating and review and share the show with a friend or colleague. It really helps more pharmacists discover the show and join us on the journey toward living a rich life today and tomorrow.
And if today’s episode got you thinking about your own financial plan, retirement goals, or what a rich life means for you, we’d love to help. You can learn more about our fee only comprehensive financial planning services by visiting y fp wealth.com. [00:49:00] And finally, an important reminder that the content in this podcast is provided to you for informational purposes only, and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment.
Or any other advice, information of the podcast and correspond materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. For more information, you can visit yfp wealth.com/disclaimer. Thanks so much for listening. Have a great rest of your week.