For many pharmacists, work becomes part of who they are. Learn how identity, purpose, career transitions, and retirement are deeply connected.
Episode Summary
For many pharmacists, work becomes more than a job. After years of education, training, and professional growth, being a pharmacist can become deeply connected to how we see ourselves. But what happens when career goals are achieved, a transition opportunity emerges, or retirement begins to appear on the horizon?
In this episode of Scripted Wealth, Tim & Tim explore the often-overlooked connection between identity and career. They discuss why pharmacists may be especially susceptible to tying their sense of purpose and self-worth to their profession, how the sunk cost of education and training can make career pivots feel difficult, and why retirement is about much more than replacing a paycheck. The conversation challenges listeners to think beyond their job title and consider how to build a life rich with purpose, relationships, community, and meaning both before and after retirement.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
- Why pharmacists are particularly vulnerable to tying their identity to their profession
- How the sunk cost of education, training, and student loans can influence career decisions
- Why retirement is often an emotional and identity transition, not just a financial one
- How a strong financial foundation creates optionality for career pivots and life changes
- Practical questions to help define who you are beyond your role as a pharmacist
Mentioned in Today’s Episode
Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] They’ve been at it for 15, 20 years, and maybe they’ve gone through, they’ve checked all the boxes, right? They got the degree, they did the advanced training, maybe they got board certified, they’ve been promoted several times within their organization. Uh, but they s- look up and it’s like, “I’ve still got 15 or 20 years left and I feel like I’ve arrived.
I feel like I’ve checked all the boxes, like, what else?” And this question I think very much comes to the surface at this point, right? Who am I beyond my role as a pharmacist? And I’ve been thinking a lot about the sunk cost involved in the pharmacy education and training. Investment of time, obviously, to get the degree or do some training beyond the degree, investment of money, we’ve talked about that at length on this show, and even just the emotional in- investment that’s made over multiple years through that training period.
And I think naturally because of that sunk cost, because of that investment, for [00:01:00] many pharmacists, their career becomes more than a job. Uh, and career would imply that, right? More than a job. But even further than that, it becan- become a big part of how they see themselves, and identity is wrapped up in their role as a pharmacist, and that really is the topic of what we’re gonna talk about here on today’s show.
A- as the non-pharmacist in the conversation, uh, I certainly have an opinion on this, and we’ll get to that, but I’m, I’m, I’m so curious as a non-pharmacist who has had so many conversations with pharmacists o- over the years, why, why do you think, what, what do you see in terms of why pharmacists are susceptible to this enmeshment of, of identity in, in their role as a pharmacist?
And why does it become such an important issue when we talk about things like money and financial planning and retirement planning? Yeah, you know, I, I think that this [00:02:00] is A very important topic that doesn’t get talked about at all. Um, and you know, I, I actually use this as a differentiator. You know, I’ll, I’ll say something to the effect of like, you know, when I’m talking about my pr- profession as a, as a financial planner, I’ll say something like, “Hey, unlike becoming a PharmD,” which is a lot of blood, sweat, tears, time, money, to become, become a financial advisor, there isn’t that sunk cost fallacy.
It’s a, “Hey, you can study for 12 weeks, pass the, a license exam, and you can do exactly what we do.” So the b- barrier to entry in financial planning is very low, which often leads to the profession being littered with salespeople that are just hawking products, right? Life insurance, financial. So that’s not the case in, in pharmacy.
Like, you have to commit yourself at a pretty young age. And for most people, right, you can h- you can be a career changer. Um, and I think for a lot of people it is [00:03:00] the time, but it’s the dollars. You know, we talk about student loans all the time. Um, it’s the, the amount of money that, you know, it takes, um, whether it’s loans or not.
It could be, you know, money from a fi- Sure It’s just, it’s a lot of money. So, um, and I think sometimes what I’ve s- what I’ve s- seen is people, pharmacists get out of school, they’ll get into their job. Um, maybe it’s a job that they’re like, “I don’t know if I can do this for the next 20, 30, 40 years.” And- And they’re, and they’re in year one or two or three, right?
Yeah. Yeah. And I have $200,000 to pay off. And you know, maybe I’m standing behind a bench and I’m dealing with insurance and all that kind of stuff or whatever, you know, whatever it is. Yeah. Um, and that can be scary as hell, Tim. That can be frustrating. Um, you know, that can be just really hard to go overcome.
You know, I think- The, the money thing is real, but I also [00:04:00] think the, the identity and role stuff is real too. So like, you know, one of the th- we talked about, I think briefly on the show before, like IR theory. So- Yeah … IR theory is this f- uh, sociological framework that examines a person’s identity. So who am I, and the roles, what am I expected to do- Yeah
and how that shapes behavior. So it argues that you simply don’t act on your personality trait. So like, you know, I feel like I’m pretty introverted, I think by, by nature. Um, but like when I identify myself as like, you know, a West Point graduate, a leader in the Army, I have to be, I have to stretch more into that extrovert and put myself out there, um, you know, when I was in that part of that, when that was an identity for me.
Um, and they, basically the s- the series, the theory suggests that the stronger a particular identity is, the more likely that we’re beha- we are gonna behave in ways that [00:05:00] reinforce the identity. So, and, and the interesting thing about this, Tim, is that we have multiple identities, right? So myself, I’m a, I’m a husband, I’m a parent, business owner, financial planner kind of, um, friend, son, cousin, nephew, obnoxious Philly sports fan, you know, so I, you know, maybe I need to be more obnoxious about my fandom.
So these things are all intertwined, and it kinda shapes our, our behavior and our, and, and how we, you know, how we kinda traverse through the world. And you know, I was talking about this with Shay recently Our identity as, like, parent, sometimes, like, we can get so focused on that- Yeah … that we forget that we’re also spouse- Totally
like husband and wife. And then, like, when the kids leave, right? Because one of the things that we’ll talk about here is that things change. Even your role as a pharmacist or your identity as a pharmacist change. Um, like, you gotta be able to overcome that, and I think a lot of parents sometimes [00:06:00] struggle with that because the kids are now gone and it’s like- Yeah
“Hey, Shay, I’m Tim. Nice to meet you again,” because we’ve been so focused on that identity as parent vers- and not necessarily as, you know, a husband and wife and that type of thing. So I think it’s something that we need to talk about more because I think, and we- we’ll talk about this in the context of retirement.
Retirement, for a lot of people, we think of it strictly as financial, but we don’t think of it as, like, the exit of role of a pharmacist and how that affects us and our, our be- our ability to kind of, you know, kinda traverse into that next chapter. And just to build on what you’re saying there, I love that you brought forward the IR, IR theory.
And we, we didn’t plan this in advance, so it’s fun to see where the conversation’s, you know- Yeah … gonna go, is, you know, the way I think about the IR theory, the identity and role, is that the further there’s enmeshment in the identity and the role, then the harder the separation becomes of those. So, so let, let [00:07:00] me give the, you know, the, the parent example as you were just kinda playing on or even the marriage example.
Like, o- on any given day, you know, I, I, I might feel one day like I’m a, a 10 out of 10 as a parent, as a father, and then another day I might feel like I’m a four out of 10, right? Just based on the dynamics and how that day goes. And, and that really is independent of the identity. The identity should, should remain unchanged, but the more those are enmeshed, meaning that I hang my hat, my identity all on the value of how I’m performing in that role- That’s where things get, get really sticky, right?
And if we apply that to a pharmacist, you know, we’re naturally gonna have seasons of, of work, of career, some that are gonna go better than others, some jobs that we may like more than others. Eventually we’re not gonna be a pharmacist at some point. E- even if we stay involved, right, associations have a retired pharmacist membership category, but there’s going to be a day, a point in time when we no longer have that pharmacist title.
And, you know, [00:08:00] even throughout one’s career, there could be career transitions or pivots or things that the more those are enmeshed, the harder it becomes to separate out, or in those seasons or in those jobs or in those roles where things maybe aren’t going how we want them to go, we can see the, the role creep, if you will, into the identity, you know, component.
And I, and I find this fascinating, Tim, because when I think back to my own pharmacy journey, I went to a direct entry zero six PharmD program out of high school. I had no, no identity role enmeshment of being a pharmacist. But I would suspect, as is the case in other maybe a- advanced degrees where, you know…
I, I remember going to Ohio Northern. It’s a zero six PharmD program. Day one, you’re taking pharmacy classes about what does it mean to be a pharmacist? How do you act as a pharmacist, right? You know, what is your role as a pharmacist? And you can understand why that professional identity comes in so quickly.
But let me give [00:09:00] an example of where the transition part I think can be difficult. I, I remember vividly a moment I was in my residency And I, I had this, I had this voice, like, inside of me, you know, this feeling of like, I d- I don’t really like direct patient care very much. Like, I, I don’t enjoy it. Yeah.
And- How was that saying that out loud or even- Well, I didn’t- … inside your head? I didn’t. And, and I didn’t say it out loud, but it, uh, it was almost like, you know, “Shut up.” Like, don- don’t, don’t let that space be, right? Because especially at the time where I trained in the early 2000s, there was so much focus on, right, the advancement of a pharmacist’s role and becoming a, quote, “clinical pharmacist.”
Yeah. And I was in a training program that was leading down that, that pathway. And in my mind, like, that was the end-all be-all of what a pharmacist could become, right? Working at the top of their license as a clinical pharmacist. And when that feeling comes up, it’s like, oh my gosh. Like, how much [00:10:00] money did I invest?
How much time did I invest? And now what am I going to do? And that, that’s the example I’m giving where even if it’s not retirement, I, I think there’s seasons of transition or understandings of what our role is as a pharmacist, and it’s harder to detach those when that enmeshment and the identity, I think is, is so strong.
Well, and you know, I think the other thing that you probably can talk to m- more about is that sunk call fal- fallacy in r- with regard to, like, even leaving, like, nothing that you do at YFP is related to your license, you know, as a pharmacist, right? Yeah. So, like, talk a little bit about, if you would, Tim, about, like, the transition.
So obviously you went, you know, into, like, academia and you, you were at NEOMED and then Ohio State and then, you know, maybe at the prodding of myself or others, like, “Hey, like, let’s, this is, this is taking off. Um, we have [00:11:00] employees. Um, you know, we, we kinda would love to have you full time.” Walk me through the evolution of that in the context of identity role or even sunk cost, you know, from a, from, from your perspective.
Yeah. And I, I think as you just described the journey there, like, it wasn’t any one moment, right? It was a, it was an evolution of, like, fur- further separating out, I think, my identity, um, and my role as a pharmacist. Like, a- as I think about my career journey, a pharmacist is one piece of the story, right?
It’s one of the many roles. Like, I still am a registered pharmacist. I’m still licensed. I’m now that guy who completes the CE, like, in the last week before it’s all due because none- That is- … of it’s relevant, right? Yeah, right. There’s no, there’s no, uh, you can’t even have personal finance CE. So if- Yeah
ACPE is listening, that needs to change. Yeah, let’s do that But it really was a step, and I had some great mentors along the way that really helped me understand and see things that I, you know, couldn’t quite see myself or, or to bring that [00:12:00] voice to the surface. Because the more I leaned into the honesty around that, the more other doors opened, um, because it really helped me see that, wait a minute, the pharmacist degree and the pharmacist license, it, it’s not a finish line.
For me, the reframe was that it was a, it was a ticket to be able to ride many different rides. Um, and those rides can change. You know, I, I– the visual I always go back to is that I had genuinely thought of my pharmacy career as climbing a ladder. I got the pharmacy degree. I did the clinical residency. I got the academic position.
You go through promotion and tenure ranks from assistant to associate to full professor. I got there. I was 30-what? 4, 35, 36 years old, something like that. It’s like, well, now what? You know, now what? And the moment I started to transition the viewpoint of, hey, this isn’t a ladder, but it’s more like climbing a rock wall Meaning that sometimes you’re gonna go right, left, up, down, [00:13:00] backwards, and it’s about acquiring different skills, understanding what interests are there and how they might change over time, and that’s okay.
And it’s not a one-way path. It’s not a one-way street. And part of that opened up for me, Tim, when I made the transition from, I guess the first one would’ve been from my residency into community practice into academia, and eventually I left practice altogether pretty early in my career. You know, I had so many voices externally and internally that were like, “Hey, if you are no longer practicing, you are going to be irrel- irrelevant- Yeah
and you basically wasted your gr- uh, degree.” I’m, I’m being dramatic to make, make a point. Right. Right. Um, and as I mentioned just a few moments ago, actually the, the more I leaned into that and my interest, the more other doors opened in terms of opportunities within academia. We eventually started a business at the university.
Uh, so leaning into some of the entrepreneur interests that I didn’t necessarily name or understand at the moment, which led to other opportunities, which led me to go to Ohio [00:14:00] State, which was somewhat of a lateral move, but allowed me to acquire some different skills and interests, and then eventually leaving that work in, in 2021 as we had been building, you know, YFP since 2015.
So it was a, it was a slow evolution. Um, but I think that separations piece after piece really helped me eventually get to a point of like, hey, I invested $200,000, so I had $200,000 of student loan debt. I invested six years in the PharmD, a year in residency training. You could even argue, you know, some of the, uh, academic career and experiences.
Like, again, I’m not, I’m not doing that work today, but I genuinely feel that all of that was an important part of the journey that led to stepping stones and doors being open along the way. So, you know, could I practice in a pharmacy today? I guess legally the answer is yes, but I’m a huge liability, you know, if I was.
However, I, I genuinely believe that I am a valued member of the pharmacy profession and that my [00:15:00] degree allowed me to be in a position of, of where I was today. But it was through that separation in part of that, hey, my, my identity is, is dependent on being a clinical pharmacist or a academic pharmacist or being successful in this role that allowed me to really open up the box a little bit to say, “Hey, there’s a unique opportunity to impact the profession in a much different way, one that I never saw coming, right?
But if, if we can improve the financial wellness of the profession of pharmacy, we, we know that has a positive impact, you know, in the profession. But, um, it was a painful journey, you know, along, along the way to, to rip off some of those Band-Aids and, and I’m grateful for a lot of mentors that were there, you know, along the way.
What I remember, I remember, um, you know, talking with you as you were going through the transition, um, to YFP full time, and this is no shade on Ohio State or any large organization, but it was like, I think you had, I don’t know if head [00:16:00] trash, but it’s like, what happens, like, when I leave or whatever, and it’s like the machine goes on, right?
It’s, it’s– And it’s not that you don’t, it’s not like you don’t make contributions. I even talk with my wife about this with her job. It’s, you know, she loves her job, but, you know, when we’re working, you know, on a weekend or outside of hours, and if that becomes a habit, you know, I’m, I’m, I facetiously say, like, they don’t care about you.
And I’m not, I’m not saying that they don’t or contribution. But, like, if you’re, if you’re part of this big machine, again, you’re contributing to that, but you have to make sure that the work that you’re doing doesn’t necessarily impede on other things. Um, and it’s, it goes back to the life plan of, like, putting first things first.
But I just remember that conversation, um, of, like, your, where your head was, and it’s like the next [00:17:00] day, like, you know, the sun comes up and Ohio State is still Ohio State and, and- That’s right. That’s right … but I think we, I think w- not that we– I don’t, I don’t know what it is, but, like, like, we just think that, like, it, whether it’s perception of others or, you know, what’s gonna happen when I leave, and I, I’ve experienced this too with, you know, some of my other j- you know, cr- jobs and careers that I’ve had before YFP.
But, but it just shines a light on how- We’re just part of a greater good, a greater, a greater whole, right? And I, and, and what I, what I don’t want people, and I had these discussions with my kids and my nieces is like, the work that you do is important. It is. But don’t let it consume you. Like when you’re- That’s it
when, when you’re in a, when you’re… You know what I mean? Because- That’s it … like, it has to be a mutually beneficial relationship as we talk about profession and things like that. But to kinda go back to the sunk costly, ’cause I know, uh, the sunk cost fallacy, ’cause I know I’m kinda rambling a little bit. I do think it is harder for pharmacists to overcome this because of the money, because of the [00:18:00] time, and rightfully so.
But I think the other thing is, is like as an outsider, I am still very much impressed individuals that can get through, get the PharmD, you know. Like it’s an impressive thing. So like what are the things that you learn? Like if you’re gonna completely shift away from pharmacy, which we’re not saying that you should, but like if you’re gonna completely shift away from pharmacy.
Like I studied international relations, Tim, because I thought I would work either I would be in the military or work in the government. That never, like I don’t use any of that, right? So like what are the things from the PharmD that you can apply to other things that you’re interested in? Um, I think that’s important.
And I think the other beautiful thing about pharmacy is Like, you don’t have to just be a type of pharmacist. You can do other things. Like I talked with a pharmacist recently that they were all about billing. Um, like that was their thing, and I’m like- Absolutely … I don’t even think about those. So like, so there are– Now, it, it, you have [00:19:00] to get your foot in the door to be able to have those opportunities, but there is a, a breadth of things that you can do within pharmacy that you can…
I think sometimes it’s like, “Oh, like I’m, I didn’t get a, I didn’t get a residency or a fellowship. I’m stuck in XYZ.” Yeah. It, but that’s not true. Like y- it might take a little bit more elbow grease to get it, you know, but you can do it, right? And we’ve seen, we’ve seen our clients do it. We’ve seen, you know, there’s, there’s people out there that help you through that.
So, um, I think it’s just important to note that, is like just, just because the price tag can be high, it doesn’t necessarily… It’s like, it’s like the rock climbing wall analogy that you have. Like sometimes you might have to go back, you know, down or sideways to then continue to climb up. Yeah. Yeah, and I think you said, you used the word insignificance.
I was thinking about perspective. Like if we think about this as a 30 to 40 plus year journey of career, and that we were, we were someone before pharmacy that didn’t have an identity to pharmacist- Yeah … and we will be someone after pharmacy that [00:20:00] doesn’t have a direct tie, you know, to pharmacy. If we have that type of framework, I think it just, it shifts the perspective a little bit in when we think about these transitions or what are the some, some of the things that are involved.
Um, you know, I, I, I like to think of my brother as an example of somebody who’s done such a good job of getting out of what can be a very narrow, narrowly defined career path. And, and his, his secret sauce, which I think pharmacists would really benefit from, is, is the detachment from the job or the role or the degree, and a focus on what were the skills and experiences that were acquired through those various roles, and then applying that to the interests that are there.
That is a complete mindset shift that opens up so many- Yeah … different doors. So, you know, he had a background in industrial engineering. That was his degree. Went to work for, uh, fin- i- investment banking, JP Morgan, for over a decade. Did some pretty cool stuff [00:21:00] with international banking. You know, was in one of those roles where like your, your bonus is bigger than your salary, doing really well.
And he, he woke up, you know, his, in, in his early 30s when he started to have a family and had that moment of like- Wow, I’m making good money. I’m, I’m successful by all measures, but, like, I don’t wanna grind at 60 to 70 hours to, to go up the corporate ladder, you know, one step after another. And so it just shattered that framework, right?
And so he took, uh, he took actually nine months off, moved from London, uh, back to where we grew up in Buffalo, and it was through hiring a coach actually that helped him start to look at his experience of like, oh, okay, interesting. You have an industrial engineering degree. You had these roles within investment banking.
Let’s put aside the names for a minute, and let’s start to put on paper, like, what are the experiences? What are the projects? What are the skills that you’ve acquired? It just happens to be that you have an industrial engineering degree. It happens to be that you worked for JP Morgan. [00:22:00] But how can we then take those skills and experiences, pair it with interest, and then package that out to various types of interests and employers?
And he’s gone in many different directions since then. And, and I think in pharmacy, we need to apply that same mindset. Like, when you go through six to eight years of a pharmacy degree and maybe advanced training in, in residency or fellowship or job experience after that, yes, you are a pharmacist. Yes, you maybe are a hospital pharmacist or an industry pharmacist or a community pharmacist.
All that true, but, like, what have you learned through those? What are the experiences? And then how could those be used within your existing role or maybe in a pivot or maybe even in something outside altogether if that were to be the desire? Um, but there’s something about pharmacy, Tim, like with the sunk cost perhaps.
Is it the student loan debt that, you know, graduates are averaging $170,000? Is it the time? Is it the parental kind of voice and expectation of like, “Hey, you’re [00:23:00] gonna be a pharmacist at age 18, 19, 20″? That is then hard to detach at or even hard to pivot or, hey, I, I, I’ve seen this with, um- Some pharmacists who have made a transition to industry recently, Tim, who maybe they did two years in specialized inpatient residency and, and like PGY1 inpatient, PGY2 in like critical care ID, worked for three, four, five years, and then they pivoted to industry, but struggled with that transition because of their, quote, clinical training in that they are a hospital pharmacist, they are a residency-trained pharmacist, and maybe they didn’t need that to go into industry.
Although I would argue it certainly probably helped them, the experience. But even those transitions, I, I see people struggle with. So I just think it’s so interesting, um, that this is such a common thing within the profession. I do think too that, that you kinda talked about, um, a couple minutes ago that, that plays a part in this is kind of the, um, the evolution of the [00:24:00] PharmD and, you know, the pharmacist kind of trying to get that s- you know, equal seat at the table as like a provider.
Like, I think part of that is pushing this forward as well, um, of like, hey, we’re trying to, you know, be a, you know, kind of an equal footing, uh, member of the, the, the healthcare team. And I think that, you know, if you’re, if you’re kind of brought up in that when you went to school, I think that kind of solidifies the bond a little bit more to that identity and role of like what it means to be a pharmacist.
I, I do think that that, that, that plays a part, uh, for some people for sure. I think one of the things that I wanted to, I, I wanted to call out is, you know, like that pharmacist that’s transitioning maybe from like the clinical side to like industry And I, I thought about this as I, as I was thinking about launching my own firm, um, Script Financial back in the day, [00:25:00] is you can always go back, right?
Even for you, like if, if, if something happens to YP, which we are– we’re great, but like you, like you can always… Now you’d have to like get spun up on, on, you know, things, but you can always go back, right? Like that, like that- Yeah … that bedrock is still there. And I think like even if you’re transitioning to, you know, from a clinical role to, to an industry role or even outside, um, I think we look at things so– in such a permanent lens that it, it doesn’t afford us the, the ability to take risk with it because we think it’s like, “Okay, if we do this and we fail, like we’re screwed.”
And that’s not true. Like, like that, that isn’t true. Like you can always go back and, and knowing that… And for me, like when I was going through this, you know, of like the, the, the thought of like starting my own business versus like going to work for somebody else, which is, that was kind of the fork in the road for me.
I’m like, [00:26:00] “I’m always gonna regret not doing this. I’m always gonna re- like gonna wanna know if I could- Yeah … take something from nothing and build it into something great.” And that I know, I know I was gonna have that regret, so I had to do it. Like there, uh, it wasn’t even a choice for me anymore at the po- at that point.
And I think for some people, if they’re, if they’re in a place where they’re l- where they’re like, “Man, it’s-” It’s Sunday night, Tim. I don’t necessarily want to go to work. I, this doesn’t necessarily, you know, maybe that’s what your brother was experiencing is like, I’m, I’m doing well, but I’m just like, I’m not, I don’t wanna grind, I don’t feel fulfilled.
Like, it’s not necessarily a permanent thing to, to, to, to pivot, right? You hope it is, and you hope it, you know, the, the grass is greener and all that, but sometimes it’s not. That’s right. But that’s okay. Again, you can always go, you know, you can always climb down the wall to then go lattery or there, lateral or go back up, and I think that’s a great analogy.
And, and I think sometimes we look at the decisions of like, hey, this is a permanent thing and I’m, I’m, I’m [00:27:00] sinking myself if I don’t succeed. Yeah, and just to take that a step further, not, not only can you always go back, but arguably you’re gonna be able to then bring different experiences that you’ve acquired, right?
Yeah, for sure. So I think, I think about that through YFP, like all of the things learned through building a business, right, and building a team, and figuring stuff out, and dealing with failure, and coming up with new ideas, and testing those. I mean, all of those things and skills, you know, if it all ended tomorrow, like, arguably I’m a more valuable employee- Right
today than I was five years ago. Um, but, but that’s a different, that’s a different mindset, you know? And, and I, I don’t think I would’ve had that type of confidence in saying that 10 or 15 year- or even five years ago, for, for that matter. Yeah. Um, now, maybe taking an aside we don’t want to go to on the show, I, I think there’s also the reality of taking risk and being comfortable in saying that on the back of a strong financial foundation [00:28:00] and strong financial plan.
Right. Right? Because you’re not, you’re not in that golden handcuff mentality, which I think feeds into the conversation we’re having right now, that if I’m in my whatever point in my career, 10 years in, 15 years in, 20, 25 years, and, and I have this nagging feeling of like, ugh, this is not what I wanna do, and that means either a transition within the profession or out of the profession or eventually a retirement.
If we aren’t afforded the ability to move that from some type of thought or idea to action because of the financial foundation or plan that’s getting in the way- That’s a whole separate, right, conversation. Yeah. We talk about optionality with regard to, like, retirement and, like, hey, getting to that point of, like, no longer being able to work.
But during that, along that journey, optionality with regard to making a pivot or a move that maybe is not as lucrative, you know, like less golden handcuffs- Yeah … like, that’s still important, right? So again, we always say, like, we’re biased, but that’s where, like, a, a good solid [00:29:00] foundation in financial planning can really allow you to sleep a little bit better at night, um, as you are kind of traversing those changes and, you know, maybe switching one role out for another, um, that, you know, is, is maybe more of an unknown or just, again, not as, not as lucrative from, um, from a compensation perspective.
Yeah, and I think that’s why the f- financial plan, as we talk about at length on this show, is so connected to the career plan. You know, ha- having the option to take some risk in your career, um, certainly is connected to the strength of the financial plan that you’re sitting on. Um, and that could be asking for a promotion, um, asking for a raise.
That could be trying to create a new role within an organization, pivoting to a role outside of your current employment that maybe isn’t the best fit. That could be pursuing, uh, a new opportunity maybe outside of pharmacy. That could be reducing, you know, hours if you’re looking for more [00:30:00] optionality of ti- any one of those, i- if we can build a strong financial plan, we’re gonna be able to approach those with confidence.
And as you, as you know well, Tim, from coaching people through negotiations of many types, fi- financial and non-financial, if you’re, if you’re negotiating from a position of confidence internally, that negotiation’s gonna go in a completely different way ’cause you’re not in a scarcity mindset, right? Right.
Exactly right. Yeah, and I think, again, that is, it comes with, I think, strong financial foundations and- Yeah … and also just knowing, like, where you wanna go and, and, and, and for a lot of people, where they’re at. So many people, you know, we talk to, it’s just like, “I think I’m doing okay, but I don’t know.” Like, you would be able to tell me because you work with so many pharmacists maybe at this stage of their career, and they’re correct.
Like, I can kinda tell them. But even so, it’s still relative, right? You know, if, if you’re, um, you know, depending on, like, your burn rate and things like that or, like, what your lifestyle [00:31:00] is, where you live, location’s a big thing, it’s gonna be very much relative. So at the end of the day, we just wanna do, you know, the projections and math to kinda show you that, which is kind of, again, to scratch the pharmacist brain.
But yeah, you’re absolutely light, right. A positio- a position of strength and confidence, um, is a lot, you know, is a lot better because it provides leverage and, you know, just options at the end of the day. I do think I mentioned the golden handcuffs. I wanna go back to that for a moment, ’cause I think especially for those that are, you know, in that, I don’t know, 10, 15-year mark, maybe even those that are a little bit earlier than that.
Like, I, I remember graduating, Tim, coming out at 24- Yeah … where, like, there’s this story being told of you’re a pharmacist who’s gonna make a good income, right? And I think this, this got heightened with the evolution of the PharmD, right? All of a sudden, you know, there’s a little bit of ego that’s thrown in there with the doctor and the use of doctor, and I think that’s directly connected to our identity conversation.
[00:32:00] Because if, if you’re 25, 26, 30, even 35 or 40, and there’s been so much fed into the role of a pharmacist, the title of a doctor, the degree that was obtained, uh, and the income that you’re making We can appreciate why that enmeshment between identity and role- Sure … becomes so cemented, right? Absolutely.
Yeah, I mean, yes, and, and that can be hard to kinda break out of. Yeah. Um, whether it’s, again, a pivot that’s something not nec- not necessarily pharmacy-related or even at retirement, right? Um, you know, if you, if you’re working in a profession that’s, you know, 35, 40 years, whatever that looks like, s- 50 years, and, and all of a sudden you’re not that anymore in the day-to-day and people don’t look to you, and I mean, that, retirees can struggle with that, for sure, and I think pharmacists in particular.
Um, so I think it, I think it’s a, it’s just really good to be aware, um, and, and have [00:33:00] these conversations and, you know, I think that’s why retirement is not just a financial, um, or even just life. It’s not just a financial, uh, you know, conversation. It’s much more than that. And one thought that just came to mind, uh, I’m curious to hear your, your perspective on this, is it, it feels like there’s something in that mid-career, 40s, 50s, where the questions start surfacing or, you know, I gave my example of like there’s that voice inside of like, “Ugh, I don’t really like direct patient care,” and then eventually, thankfully, it came out much earlier than that, but- Yeah
right where, where we give some oxygen and some space for these maybe deeper questions that have been under the surface for a while, and they start to boil up. Um, and it reminds me, I read a book several years ago called The Second Mountain where they talk about this concept where, right, you’re, you’re on this path for the first half-ish of your life and you’re climbing a mountain, all of a sudden you get to the top and you’re like, “Oh, there’s a whole nother mountain,” right?
To climb that you [00:34:00] didn’t even know that was there, and that’s, you know, maybe the second half of, of the story. And I think there’s something there with pharmacists in, in 40s, 50s, they’ve been at it for 15, 20 years, and maybe they’ve gone through, they’ve checked all the boxes, right? They got the degree, they did the advanced training, maybe they got board certified, they’ve been promoted several times within their organization.
Uh, but they s- look up and it’s like, “I’ve still got 15 or 20 years left and I feel like I’ve arrived. I feel like I’ve checked all the boxes. Like, what else?” And this question, I think, very much comes to the surface at this point, right? Who am I beyond my role as a pharmacist? And, and maybe even some of the unsettled feelings of, wow, there is, there is a lot connected here, and I’d like to start to separate this out a, a little bit more.
What are your thoughts on that? Is that just a natural rhythm we go through? I mean, is there a reason why, um, you know, it’s kind of a natural halfway point, it’s a mid-career? Is it partially because, hey, this is the point where [00:35:00] for those that have kids, we start to see our kids getting older, and there’s all these other variables that are involved.
We finally can just lift our heads up to think about it. Like, what, what are your thoughts? I, I think it’s a combination of those, but I think, I think it’s, um, I think it’s kind of that, um, transition of kind of that scarcity mindset to, like, an abundance mindset because, you know, we’ve talked about this previous episodes.
It’s like when you get, when you get started, it’s like, all right, debt, right into the six-figure job to pay down the debt. It’s I gotta start these retirement accounts, buy a house, get married, have kids. It’s just hair on fire, transition after transition, and there’s just not a lot of discretionary income that goes around.
And I think all the other things that you kind of mentioned with like, hey, kids are getting older, you know, maybe you have a little bit more confidence and footing from a career perspective. But I think it’s picking your head up, or you’re allowing yourself to pick your head up because you feel more of the abundance of the work that you put in and less of the [00:36:00] scarcity that allows those self-reflective questions of like, who am I?
What am I doing? Is this what I want? Um, am I optimized? Which is often why You know, prospective clients will book a meeting with me is because they’re like, “Hey, I, I’m, I think I’m doing okay, and I make a good income, and, you know, we’re putting money in these different buckets. But, like, I don’t necessarily think that we’re making the best use, or there’s some bleed because we don’t have, you know, strong goals.
We’re just kind of throwing money different places, but we still have money just sitting there or just, it’s being spent.” I think it’s that, I think it’s that transition from scarcity to abundance that, that then leads to some of these reflex- reflective conver- you know, questions and conversations within about where am I at in the universe and, you know, how can I make this better, whether that’s a, a financial or even a career or time.
You know, you start to think about, like, okay, like, what does, [00:37:00] what does retirement look like or winding down my career or, or having a, a twilight career of consulting or doing something. So I, I think it, I think it– If I had to p- if I had to say one answer, I think it’s the scarcity to abundance mindset that then leads to some of these deeper questions that we just didn’t have the time, the space, maybe the patience to do, uh, you know, to, to talk through before.
I think aging parents is another one that’s coming up for me that you and I have been talking a lot about- Yeah … in the last- Yes … last few weeks, right? ‘Cause there’s a natural point in time, you know, speaking for myself, where, like, i- in my mind, uh, you know, my parents are just, like, fixed at a certain age.
Um, and obviously as time progresses and health conditions naturally come present and, and other things that are there, it starts to shatter that view a little bit and you start to see some of the finite nature of the time that you have perhaps with your, your own parents or your family and, you know, the, the next generation [00:38:00] type of evolution that’s happening.
And I think that puts a, a, a viewpoint on time, uh, that again gives more space for these questions because, I don’t know if urgency’s the right word, right, but you, you just start to look at it a little bit different. Yeah, and I think, I think, um, and I don’t know if we’ve talked about this on the podcast or I know, I know we’ve talked about it one on one.
Um, you know, I was kinda thinking about this with, with regard to m- more of, um, Zoe, my two-year-old, where we’re going through these transitions now where I’m like, “This is the last of this,” right? So, like, right now the thing that we’re trying to work through is the, the binky, the pacifier, right? Which she’s really in love with.
The binky. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I pick her up from daycare, and they don’t really allow her to have it for, at daycare, but she looks at me and it’s almost like her pack of smokes. She’s like, “Where’s my binky? I need my…” It’s pretty funny. Um, but we need– You know, she’s two now, so we have to tr- transition out of that, through that.
And, like, I remember [00:39:00] when I used to cuddle Liam before I would put him down to bed and, you know, I would cuddle his back and then put him in his crib and then rub his back for a while, and I remember, like, pretty soon, like, this is gonna be… ’cause we’re gonna transition from the bed to, or from the crib to the bed, and that was true, right?
And so I was thinking about that. So I think what that, what that, what that really triggers is this feeling of being present- Yeah … and also, like, gratitude, right? But I also think about it in terms of the other end of the spectrum of, like, you know, my dad turns 80 this year, and, you know, health issues and, you know, we’re getting together to do a camping trip for his 80th birthday.
All the, all the kids and, and them, and we’re meeting in one spot. Everyone lives in different states except for me and my sister. Um, but, like, you know, in the back of my head, I’m like, “Is this one of the last, like, few times that we’ll all be together?” I know that sounds terrible and morbid, but that’s the truth of the matter, right?
So I’m [00:40:00] approaching this as very much from a, a p- a, a place of, like, gratitude and being thankful, um, but also being really, really present, um, especially with, you know, my parents. Because, you know, whether this is it or there’s a handful more, um, you know, I wanna soak it up while I can. And I, and I think that to what you’re saying is, you know, I’m talking about abundance to s- you know, uh, scarcity to the abundance transition.
I, I think if you overlay some of these relationship things, um, as, you know, as a son, um, or as a parent, um, or it could be even, like, a s- a sibling or whatever that is, like, I do think that these cause periods of pause, and that’s a good thing. And I think- Absolutely … like, sometimes if we’re so inundated with work and life, we don’t take those o- like, we don’t take those [00:41:00] opportunities to slow the heck down and actually think or appreciate, you know?
And it’s just so easy to kinda just get caught up in the next thing or get distracted by a screen or whatever. You know, a, uh, one of the, one of the, the, the questions I’ll get often is like, “Why did you, why, why do you work with pharmacists?” And the, the r- the answer to that is, you know, one, it, it was just kind of a matter of circumstance.
You know, I’ve talked about this on the podcast. One of my West Point buddies married a pharmacist. They became clients of, u- of mine, and then they, they referred me out to a lot of other pharmacists. And then when I decided to pivot and start my own business, Tim, I decided to niche to pharmacists, but it was really because I was listening to the universe and taking that, kind of that message and being like, “This is what I need to do.”
I could’ve just easily been like, “Okay, I work with a lot of pharmacists,” but that doesn’t necessarily mean that I should work with pharmacists. So in, in the same way, the ability to slow down and [00:42:00] listen and take in, be present to what’s around you- is hard because life is just so hectic and, and I think that’s another part of this, is just really slowing the heck down and, you know, taking some rest and ref- reflecting on.
And I, and I think that, again, I know a lot of these episodes can be, you know, very much a commercial for financial planning, um, which is by design, but also not by design. Good music. Yeah. Yeah. But that is what a good financial planner is. It f- kind of forces you into some of those reflective conversations, because we just get so busy.
So, like, if I’m meeting with you, Tim, and I’m like, and we’re talking about, you know, retire- retirement is, you know, it, it might become… It might shift from, like, can I retire to, like, who will you become when you’re no longer working? Or is what you’re doing right now, is this your [00:43:00] trajectory? “Hey, last year we talked about you doing X, Y, and Z, and we’re doing it, so, like, what’s next?”
Or, “We’re not doing it, so, like, what needs to change?” So, that is what I think a good… It’s not just about the ones and zeros, right? It’s about qu- you know, having those questions and those deep conversations, because we only get this one life, right? And we wanna make the most of it and, you know, all the things that we’ve talked about before.
So, I know this is Tim’s, you know, let me step off the soapbox, um, but- Preach it. Preach it … yeah, you know, it can be a little bit tangential to, you know, kind of the identity and role. But I do think that- You know, those lasts, whether it’s, you know, a, you know, a two-year-old baby or, or my 80-year-old dad, I think being able to slow down and, and, and really recognize that is a gift in itself.
You, you mentioned this question of who, who am I when I enter in retirement? Yeah. I wanna talk about that a little bit further because this is so important, um, for our listeners and, and certainly [00:44:00] relevant to what we’re talking about here today, which is the, the pharmacist identity trap and this connection between identity and role.
When we think about retirement, typically, it, it, it’s one that we’re thinking about towards anticipation and excitement. Or, or usually that’s the conversation, right? You know, I’d like to get to a point someday in the future where I’m no longer dependent on working my 9:00 to 5:00 to be able to fund my expenses, and there can be some type of relax and leisure and, and do all the things, right- Yeah
that we, we wanted to do. Yep. Oversimplifying, of course, just for, for the conversation. Um, and so we talk about saving a certain amount of money to get there, and we work our whole career to get there, and hopefully we wake up and we’ve got X amount saved, and we’ve planned for that, and we’ve crossed all the Ts and dotted our Is.
But what we don’t talk a whole lot about is that emotional transition, uh, into retirement, right? So I’ve, I’ve been working for 30, maybe 40 or more years. I’ve, I’ve spent my career probably on [00:45:00] some level associating my identity as a pharmacist, and now I’m not. Now I’m not. Now, some people might work part-time, some people stay actively involved in organizations or doing different things, but nonetheless We’re no longer associating ourselves, at least in the same way that we were.
So there’s that, and then there’s also this aspect that even in work situations that are challenging, Tim, I, I think we tend to underestimate the feelings of contribution, right? Uh, e- even if we’re in a s- work situation where like, ah, it’s not ideal, just that sense of I’m contributing, I’m helping patients, I’m working with providers, I’m working with other colleagues, right?
I, I, I have a value and a purpose and a sense of contribution, and now that’s gone, too. And so we might get to this position where we wake up and we’re like, “I’ve done all the things I wanted to do, that we planned for and prepared for. I’ve got the dollars, I’ve got the resources. We can do all the leisure activities, but I [00:46:00] didn’t anticipate this,” right?
“I dis- didn’t anticipate these feelings of void and what might be present in retirement as I’ve made this transition from a career that I identified with for 30 or 40 years.” Yeah. I’m chuckling to myself a little bit because I, I remember, you know, like, when I kind of stepped out of, like, you know, the financial planner role, um, to really manage the team and work on the front end with business development and prospecting and things like that, one of the things that I was scared of is like, like, what are the- my clients gonna do without me if I’m, you know, you know, moving them to a different planner?
And it was like- not even a thing. You know, um, so you’re talking about, like, patient care. It’s like the people on our team are- Now, now they love Kim and Angel. It’s like- Yeah, they’re just- “Kim who?” Yeah, yeah. Like, get, get, scram guy. Like they’re… And, and, you know, obviously you have to have a capable team that connects with people and, you know, that are really technically sound.
But, you know, I’m sure a lot of pharmacists, you know, are, are, you know, that are transitioning or thinking about transitioning and they [00:47:00] work with patients or, or a team or whatever have that, right? And yeah, I think so much about this is like many, like I said, many people think of retirement as, you know, primarily a financial transition.
And, you know, what we’re talking about here is role exit, where, you know, this is the process of leaving a role that has been central to your identity. And the challenge is, is that many, many people often prepare financially for these transitions, but they neglect the identity transition. Um, and then retirement arrives and, you know, retirees today struggle with depression, substance abuse because of that.
Um, and I don’t know if it was, if it’s any more prevalent now versus in times gone by or if, if we just talk about it a little bit more. I don’t think we talk about it enough. Um, but you know, back in the day you might be with a company, my dad worked for the same company for 40, 50 years. Yeah. He was there, you know, so, you know, you could see that identity really enmesh versus maybe there’s a [00:48:00] little bit less of a, you know, a, a loyalty.
We don’t have pensions or those types of golden handcuffs so that, you know, transition from job to jobs are a little bit more. But, you know, I think at the end of the day, you know, the income replacement problem can be solved, but the identity replacement remains. Like that, that is something that is, uh, kind of a little bit more abstract maybe.
Um, you know, many retirees discover that they’re n- they’re not just leaving a job, they were, they’re kind of leaving a major piece of, of who they believe themselves to be. Yeah. So, you know, I do think- It, I do think that this is an important conversation to, to continue to have. And I, again, I, I do think a financial– a good financial planner can talk through this and, um, you know, who are you beyond your profession?
What roles matter to you most? Um, which identities are growing stronger? What are fading, right? And we’ve talked about this end of [00:49:00] history idea that, you know, like, oh, like m- my life five years from now will be similar to what it is, and it’s not. You know, like change is inevitable. Um, so I, I think that diversifying roles and trying out different roles and seeing what sticks is really important, but it’s, it’s harder now than ever to do that, I think.
That’s right. Yeah. Um, and we can talk about that a little bit more. But yeah, I think, I think the big thing here is, you know, there is a fear for some behind retirement because they, they recognize this. But I also think there is a lot of people that are overconfident in this, that don’t– they underestimate, you know, life beyond their role as a pharmacist, um, that can get in trouble, especially if they don’t have those strong foundations, not just from a financial perspective, but just from a, you know, a role in a community, um, um, those types of things that they’re, they can be [00:50:00] lost, you know, and, and it can lead to things that are not necessarily great from a health and wellness perspective And this is such a good example of why we talk so much about developing a financial plan that allows us to live a rich life today and tomorrow, right?
Because if we’re, if we’re just focused on tomorrow without prioritizing today, part of the prioritizing today is to prepare ourselves for the emotional transition- Yeah … into retirement. Not, not just spending. I- we talked about the importance of building a spending muscle for those that are hyper savers.
But also, you mentioned, you know, a couple things, right? Whether it’s community, hobbies, you know, faith, relationships. Yeah. Right? All these things that, you know, when I think about my own journey, Tim, you know, I, I had a lot of hobbies and interests, and then pharmacy school happens, life happens, and, like, they get beat out of you.
And, and you have to work hard to bring those back. You know, I, I, I love to read. I love to compete [00:51:00] and play sports. I love to go watch sporting events. You know, we started playing poker with a group of guys a couple years ago. Yeah. Like, you, you have to work to bring these things back, and I think the point here is we, we can’t wait until retirement to start to bring some of these things back.
I think there’s a trap that probably from, you know, commercials and advertisements of, you know, showing the beaches and the vacations in retirement that, like, we’ll enjoy that someday. Like, we need to bring retirement into the present day as well, because that’s gonna help us transition emotionally and make sure that we’re not just ready financially, but also, like, are we retiring to something, right?
Are we retiring to the hobbies that we already enjoy? Are we retiring to the relationships that we’ve already and have been investing in? Are we retiring into the community and into the friendships and into our, you know, our centers of faith and all these different things and service activities, et cetera?
If we’re able to do those and, and really lay the seeds, [00:52:00] even if some seasons of life, you know, we can’t invest the time that we would want to, can we keep the momentum going so that it’s not just a someday we’ll get to those things? I think that this is harder Than, you know, previous generations, um, you know, just that ability to c- Wh- which piece?
Like, the ability to, like, connect and build, like, community. Um, I’ll give you an example that, you know, yesterday was the kids’ first day of, like, summer swim, and, you know, we have a lot of good relationships with other parents and, and my kids, uh, you know, with, with swim. And but, you know, today’s the first day, or yesterday was the first day, and a lot of the kids, you know, there, there’s a lot of new swimmers, so they have to basically get across the pool to, you know, be able to make the swim team essentially.
And, um, so, like, there’s just a lot of parents, you know, standing around, but a lot, like so many were just, like, on their phones. [00:53:00] Like, and it’s just tough- There’s no space, right? Yeah … it’s just tough to meet people organically, and I think, like, if we have, like, awkward silences, it’s like it’s just, you know, get your phone out and, you know, be buried there.
And, you know, we’re, I think we’re always on our devices, so we’re, we’re so connected Facebook and social media, but we’re so disconnected and- Absolutely. Mm-hmm … this is adults included. So, you know, and we’ve talked about this, Tim, with like, um, you know, so many people today r- r- you know, in versus, like, previous generations are- transient, right?
Like, I grew up in the Philadelphia area, New Jersey. You know, you grew up, grew up in Buffalo. We don’t live there. So, like, you know, I think to be able to build a community is, is tougher, you know, especially when people move a lot. Um, we’re connected but we’re not. We’re divided even though we c- most people agree on most things.
So, it’s really, like, you really have to make an effort for this. And if, and if you don’t view this as important, you’re like, “Ah, I’ll get… It’s, it’s the someday, I’ll get to this or when I retire.” Yeah, that’s [00:54:00] right. You know, so I, I think it’s just important to, to be aware of. And one of the reasons, like, I wanted to start playing poker is to build a sense of that a little bit.
Like, you know, like I said, I don’t, I didn’t grow up in Columbus. You know, most of my buddies from college and high school, they just live everywhere, you know. So, like, we, we, we’ll go and visit, but you know, having kind of that at-home base is really important, too. And, um, so like, I think I told you, Tim, that my son’s gotten really big into ice hockey, so, like, I am taking ice skating lessons.
You know? And I grew up rollerblading and doing a little bit of ice hockey, but like, I am putting myself out there and looking like, you know, not the m- most graceful person. But part of that is to build my own community and obviously support my son. Um, but that is a heavy lift because I’m taking time out and spending money, um, making myself vulnerable because I’m out there with mostly kids.
Um- Might, might tear your ACL in the process. Yeah, might tear… [00:55:00] Exactly right. Yeah. So, like, th- these, these are not easy, easy things to do. Yeah. But you know, if we ta- kind of k- talk about diversification from a role and identity perspective or a role perspective, I should say, like, these are things that I think are necessary.
Um, you know, and again, that, that’ll fade in the future. I’m not always gonna, like, be his ice hockey coach or, or play ice hockey myself. Um, but you know, I’m willing to kinda put myself out there to, to see where it goes. So yeah, I just think it’s, it’s something that, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m really grateful for this conversation because it’s just something that I know, like, we’ve kind of talked around a bit and, you know, it’s been a kind of tertiary conversation to the broader financial plan and things like that.
But I think it’s something that it deserves its own spotlight because it’s not talked about enough. I’m gonna wrap up with just a handful of questions to get the listeners thinking a, a layer deeper or, or two. Um, so the first question is if, if you couldn’t introduce yourself using your job [00:56:00] title, how would you describe yourself?
Right? We talked a lot about the, the pharmacist identity and role. The second question is what, what parts of your life currently give you meaning outside of work? What are those areas that you feel like there is some fulfillment and joy and meaning and purpose outside of work? If you retired tomorrow- How would you fill your calendar?
I know you talk about the seminal life planning process, right? What would a normal day, what would a normal week look like? Let’s get out the calendar, uh, and actually start to project that out. Who would you be if pharmacy was gone from the equation for whatever reason? How would you define yourself? How would you think about the day and the calendar?
And then finally, a theme that we’ve been talking about towards the second half here, are you building wealth only for retirement, or are you building a life worth retiring into? And how do we prioritize investing in those experiences and in those activities today? So Tim, great stuff. Uh, a- as always, this was a fun one, and, uh, I think one that we’ll point [00:57:00] back to maybe for, for some time.
So, uh, we’ll be back at it here in a couple weeks. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Scripted Wealth: Money and Meaning for Pharmacists. If you enjoyed the conversation, be sure to subscribe, leave us a rating and review, and share the show with a friend or colleague. It really helps more pharmacists discover the show and join us on the journey toward living a rich life today and tomorrow.
And if today’s episode got you thinking about your own financial plan, retirement goals, or what a rich life means for you, we’d love to help. You can learn more about our fee-only comprehensive financial planning services by visiting yfpwealth.com. And finally, an important reminder that the content in this podcast is provided to you for informational purposes only, and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice.
Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. For more information, you can visit [00:58:00] yfpwealth.com/disclaimer. Thanks so much for listening. Have a great rest of your week