Mid-career pharmacists face bigger decisions than ever. Learn how to navigate retirement, family priorities, and life’s financial tradeoffs.
Episode Summary
Many pharmacists enter their 40s and 50s feeling financially stable, but also increasingly stretched. They’re often in their peak earning years, peak spending years, and peak responsibility years all at the same time. In this episode, Tim & Tim explore the financial decisions that tend to have the biggest long-term impact during mid-career, from retirement timing and mortgage payoff strategies to supporting children, caring for aging parents, and balancing future goals with present-day experiences.
Rather than focusing on endless optimization, this conversation highlights the importance of intentional decision-making. The discussion challenges listeners to think beyond spreadsheets and ask deeper questions about what retirement means, what tradeoffs are worth making, and when it’s okay to enjoy the life they’ve worked so hard to build.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
- Why mid-career often shifts from financial accumulation to financial optimization
- How to think about retirement timing and the concept of work optionality
- The tradeoffs involved in paying off a mortgage versus investing or spending intentionally
- How to navigate financial decisions involving children, college funding, and aging parents
- Why a clear financial plan can provide confidence to enjoy life today while preparing for tomorrow
Mentioned in Today’s Episode
- Book: Start With Why by Simon Sinek
- Book: The Nvidia Way by Jensen Huang
- Book: Mom & Dad We Need to Talk by Cameron Huddleston
- YFP 393: How Much is Enough for Kids’ College?
- YFP Wealth
Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] The trap here, Tim, I think is we just endlessly move the goalposts. And I think a lot of pharmacists are wired like that. I know I am, where give me the checklist, tell me what I need to do, I’m gonna do it, and then we get it done, and the goalposts shift. And so in this mid-career, again, the question is what, when is it okay to enjoy what we’ve built?
In our own experiences, along with the work that our planning team does with clients every day, tells us that mid-career is, is often where financial life just gets a little bit more complicated. You know, many pharmacists in their 40s, in their 50s find themselves at a point where they’re simultaneously in their peak earning years, they’re also in their peak spending years, and probably, drawing from our experience, pe- peak responsibility years, all of that happening at the same time.
And so just like we are, they’re, they’re thinking both about retirement [00:01:00] while still considering expenses around their kids or kids’ college. They’re trying to find this balance between enjoying life today and preparing for what comes next, what’s in the future. They might be caring for aging parents, considering career changes, evaluating when they wanna retire, and asking some of the bigger questions that we’ve been talking about on this show.
What, what is this all about? And what you and I have been discussing over the last several episodes is that success in this season usually isn’t about further optimization. While there’s a time and, and place for that, it’s not always about chasing a little bit more savings or chasing a better return, but really trying to intentionally and thoughtfully think about some key decisions and, and some of the key topics around the, the financial plan.
And so on today’s episode, we’re gonna do that. We’re gonna unpack some of the financial decisions that tend to have the biggest impact during [00:02:00] someone’s 40s and 50s. But before we get into that and, and share some of our, our own perspective as well, Tim, when you think about clients of ours, when you think about prospective clients of ours as well that are, you know, in this stage of life, what, what do you see as some of the biggest shifts that are happening financially, maybe also emotionally, as someone moves from that first decade or so of their career into this mid-career stage?
Yeah, I think it, I think it shifts to, from a mindset of, like, spaghetti against the wall type of thing, of like, I just, I just need to get started and just start doing things like paying down debt or, you know, getting my emergency fund, you know, going and starting to seed some, you know, investment accounts, to more of a emphasis on, like, coordinating now, like that.
So i- i- [00:03:00] and you know, the word that comes to mind all the time in the meetings that I have with prospective clients is, like, optimization. So people feel, the pharmacists that I talk to feel pretty good about the foundation being there and set, and sometimes that is true, and sometimes it’s not. Sometimes there are things- Yeah
that we’re like, “Hey, we need to reset this or, or go back.” Um, but it’s kind of like I have all of these things, like I’ve created per the playbook, ours, whosever. Like I’ve set up these accounts. I have a 529 or a custodial account for my kids. You know, I have a high yield. I have IRAs, Roth IRAs. I have my current plan.
Maybe I have some insurance, some cash value insurance. And now it’s this reflective, like am I doing this correctly, or am I optimizing the income that’s flowing through my household? And like [00:04:00] what should I do about it? So I think it is like a, an inflection point of I’m doing things, but am I doing the right things in the right order and at, at peak level?
And then I think that is coupled with, um, that sandwich mentality. So I think we’ve talked about, like, the sandwich generation. I think that started with, like, Gen X of the first generation that was kind of tasked with taking care of aging parents, but then also, you know, growing kids, and that was kind of the first time in, that, that we’ve really kind of seen that.
Um, that’s here to stay. Like, that’s not going away. So there’s this push and pull between kind of the generational stuff. That’s what typically this is, that, that this, um, implies. But also, what, what goes along with that is, like, do I prioritize my retirement? But I just got done paying loans, [00:05:00] hopefully, and I don’t want my kids to experience that.
So do I prioritize, um, education stuff? And if you’re switched on and you’re thinking a little bit more intuitively just about the life that you’re at, and we’re kind of assuming people, again, not everybody has kids, right? But we’re, we’re kind of looking at it from that c- context of, like, you have a finite amount of time with your kids in the house.
Like, you’re also being pushed between, like, do I prioritize time and experiences with them now or at, at the behest of the future, right? So balancing that out. So it’s kind of this emotional push and pull, um, between those things that I think can often lead to just be- people being par- paralyzed and, and not necessarily, you know, living their best life in terms of what they want to do because of all the different noise that surrounds, you know, these, these types [00:06:00] of issues.
Yeah, I was thinking about the emotions, Tim, as you were talking and my, my own journey. O- overwhelmed was the word that really came up early- Yeah … in my career, right? You’re navigating the student loan debt. You’re, you know, feeling like you gotta get the emergency savings, trying to navigate a home purchase, starting a family.
As we talked about on the previous episode, finding this balance between things like saving for kids’ college and other things, and there’s just so much coming at once, and as you described it, we’re, we’re throwing all these things at the wall. And over time, hopefully we’re, we’re building a foundation, even if that foundation needs to have some cracks that are, are filled in over time.
But it feels like in this stage, the, the emotions shift, right? Not, not to say somebody can’t be overwhelmed. I think certainly that can be the case that’s there as well, but there’s this nagging sense, as you were talking, what was coming up for me, this nagging sense of like, am I optimized, right? Is there something else that we should be doing?
And we’ve, we’ve, we’ve found our footing on some level, but have this, [00:07:00] have this sense, have this itch on our brain, as my, my one son, Levi, says, right? An itch on our brain of like, ah, can we be doing something more, or should we be a little bit further along than we are? And I don’t know what… I- is that just a natural rhythm where You know, that first decade, y- you sort of don’t have a choice.
Like, your, your head’s down because there’s so many things are coming at you and, and you’re trying to, like, sort out what, what are even these pieces of the puzzle, that just over time you can finally lift your head up a little bit and say, “Hey, we’re, we’re, we’re not there, but I can now just start to see it, and there’s an opportunity for better defining this and beginning to put some of these pieces together.”
Yeah, and I think if we’re talking about, you know, clients in their 40s and 50s, particularly in their 40s, the, the mountain of student debt that one starts with, it’s almost like you’re standing at the base of Everest, right? It just feels so overwhelming to kind of start climbing that mountain. [00:08:00] And, you know, I can’t tell you how many conversations I’ve had with, you know, individuals that are looking at two, three, $400,000 in student loan debt and, and it’s like, “I’m never gonna be able to retire.
This will never-” It feels like you’ll never get there. Yeah. “I’ll, I’ll… It’ll never not be part of my life.” And, you know, we kind of talk them off that ledge and we’re like, “Hey, we, we’re gonna put a plan together and get through this.” Um, but you don’t really believe it until you see it. It’s the same thing, like, I, you know, I, I would talk about clients going from, you know, a negative net worth of 300,000 to a positive net worth of 300,000 and, you know, quantitatively, that’s what we want to track, you know, over time.
And you kind of get the eye rolls of like, “Hey, this, this can be done in a, you know, pretty aggressive timeline if we do this correctly.” And it’s like, “Yeah, right, Tim, like, not gonna happen.” And then it happens, you’re like, “Oh, okay.” You know? And, and, you know, when you get to that stage of life where your investment [00:09:00] returns outpace, like, what you can save, that’s where, you know, we’re, we’re really trying to, again, optimize what we’re doing.
So it’s, it’s kind of the working smarter, not harder type of thing. Yeah. So, you know, I, I do think that, that there’s this overwhelming burden for most pharmacists to get started and just to take off is, is, can just be, you know, ridiculously hard. But once you get off of, you know, the base of Everest and you start, you know, you’re still, I always still look at it as a, as an uphill, there’s still struggle.
But you can start to see, you can look down and be like, “Okay, I’ve come a long way.” You know, my- You see some progress, yeah … I see progress. And I think that’s where, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s kinda you, you start to shift from that scarcity mindset to more of an abundance mindset. And, you know, studies show that you just think about life, the world, your situation differently when, you know, when, when [00:10:00] you’re more from an abundance mindset.
So it, it’s a very real thing. Like, it’s a very real thing. And, and I think, again, we- we’re advocates of, like, the sooner you put a plan in place, um, the sooner you can kind of get to that optimization stage. Um, you don’t wanna get in that You know, in my, in what I’m writing, I, I kind of call, like, what we’re talking about, like, the roots phase, like, where you’re really just trying to plant roots and get going.
Um, when you get to that optimization stage where you’re kind of hitting your peak earning years, typically higher discretionary income, loans are probably in the rear view mirror, the retirement balances are meaningful. You’re starting to now compete with, you know, kids’ needs, you know, not just activities, but, you know, their, you know, uh, education on the horizon.
Then the, the aging parent, you know, those conversations and maybe, um, you know, competition for time and your resources, you know, start to play a part. Um, [00:11:00] you know, and then, and then you’re probably even looking at maybe burnout, too, right? You’ve been hustling, you know, you’ve, you’ve kept your head down, and you’re like, “Okay,” like, “Is this what I want to do for the, the, the second half of my career?”
Or whatever that looks like. And, you know, another thing that I o- often hear, Tim, is, like, just my taxes, you know, I, I’m getting killed on taxes. There’s, they’re a lot more complex. Am I doing this right? Um, you know, am I setting myself up for, for, you know, future success? So o- there’s just a lot, right? Yeah.
It’s just, it’s, it is just a lot going on. And, you know, again, I think, like, going back to the proponent of being, you know, planning, the, the, there’s just so many pieces to account for, not just on a technical element, but just, you know, the, are we– did we set the right goals? Are we tracking towards those goals?
Is this what we still want to do? Um, and overlay the emotion of just things changing. We had a long conversation this morning about change being inevitable, right? And, and it can, it, things can change very quickly. So, [00:12:00] you know, having someone in your corner that has an objective view of you, your goals, what’s important, your balance sheet, I, I think is invaluable.
So, um, but this, this optimization phase is just riddled with, uh, what I think for a lot of people is con- it’s confidence, but also, like, second guessing, right? Am I, am I doing the things I’m sh- I should be doing? Mm-hmm. And then if I’m not, like, what does that actually look like? How does that affect my life, et cetera?
So, so let’s dig into what you’re calling the optimization phase. I, I like that a lot. So we’re, we’re talking by decades, of course, you know- Yeah … some people might be further along, some of people will be behind, but essentially this mid-career, right? These big questions- Yeah … that come up in the financial plan, and we’re gonna walk through several different areas.
A- and our intent is not to walk through any one of these with a game plan of you should do X, Y, and Z. Hopefully, if you’ve been a listener for some time, uh, you, you know [00:13:00] very much, uh, that Tim Baker likes to say, “It depends,” for a reason, and we’re gonna talk about several different parts of the plan that with more information, with more planning, with more coordination across these, we very likely would get to several different pathways depending on your situation.
So our goal here is to be a guide, hopefully to ask some of the probing questions just like we’re asking ourselves in all of these different areas. And our hope is through the questions, there then becomes a discussion and conversations and eventually, as you described, a plan that can help, uh, put, put some of these questions, not, not to say put them to rest ’cause things change, but at least to have a plan of where we’re going and, and why we’re going there.
Let, let’s start with the retirement timeline, right? Th- this is generally a phase, I think, where people are 20, 25, 30 years into their career. M- maybe they’re in a role that they love, maybe they’re in a position of burnout as you mentioned just a few moments ago. But we can start to see, at least, I don’t know if we can tangibly feel it.
[00:14:00] As w- as we’ve talked about before, it’s hard to really envision things that are more than five years out. Um, but we can start to at least see retirement on the horizon, and I think there’s a natural shift that moves from, “Hey, I need to be saving for retirement,” to more of the granular and specific parts of the plan.
Um, when might that date be? Is it a traditional retirement age? Is it a early retirement age? And obviously this, this impacts a lot of different things. Our, our savings targets, where we’re savings, the buckets in which those funds are, eventually Social Security timing, healthcare planning. We talked about both of those on the previous episode.
And so this, this question of defining retirement, if I could simplify, I think starts to come into focus, and a lot of things to be thinking about here. Uh, what, what am I retiring to? What does that word retirement mean? But Tim, just your general thoughts and maybe even some of the questions as people are weighing this, this question in the middle of their [00:15:00] career of, well, what is my retirement timeline?
Yeah, I, I, I think, I think at least in the, in the conversations that I experience This is very much all over the map, um, and, and I’ll explain that in a second. But it’s also very much a moving target. So we’re, um, we’re in the process of bringing on a client that, you know, she’s like, “I wanna retire at 57.”
And I wanna dig a little bit deeper into why. Like, what, what, what’s, what’s about that number? Um- It’s a specific age. Yeah. It’s a specific, it’s a very specific age. She’s like, “That’s, you know, if I can r- if I can part-time retire at 55 and fully retire at 57, like, that, that’s my wheelhouse.” Um, so I think part of us is to peel back that onion a little bit and ex- Yeah
and understand why. Um, and then obviously there’s a, there’s a lift there to, to make sure that we’re, we’re set up for that and we’re kind of backing into that, that goal. So it’s, you know, on one end of the spectrum it’s, it’s that, to on the other end of the [00:16:00] spectrum is like, “You know what? Like, it would be nice to retire, you know, at 65.
But, like, I’m, I’m good with working.” And I’ve had someone recently say, like, “I really don’t ever plan on retiring, you know? I’m, you know, my wife wants to retire. I’m, I’m good, you know, I can, I can work for as long as I need to.” And that they’re a little bit behind, um, or he’s a little bit behind with what, you know, what he’s doing.
So he, I think he kind of looks at it as like, I, I need to make up some lost ground. So, and then there’s everything in between, right? So, uh, and the, the, so the reason I say it’s fluid is because, and I’ve had this conversation with, uh, my wife, is she’s like, “I could work in my job” indefinitely. And I think the caveat to that, Tim, is like very much her life is dictated by, like, who her manager is.
So great manager, things are awesome. Not so great manager, it’s like, “Where’s the door?” type of thing. So I, I do think it, there… And, and, and pe- the same is t- the [00:17:00] true is actual retirement. Sometimes, you know, the conversation can be misleading because like, “I’m gonna retire at age 60,” but there’s a lot of people where they have no control of that, of that at all, right?
I think the stat is 40% of people retire earlier than what they thought they would because of a sickness or, um, they were phased out or whatever that is. So, so we don’t necessarily have control over that. But again, like, I think if we go back to th- to the idea of planning, planning intentionally, you know, o- over many, many years opens the door and gives us options to be able to flex into things.
Uh, you know, so, you know, what did President Trump say something about, like, healthcare? There’s like a, there’s like an abstract of a plan or, or something like that. There’s like an outline of a plan. It’s kind of like the same thing. Like, we don’t need to necessarily know. Now we can, we can go down to the exact, “Hey Tim, you’re gonna retire at 57 years old in two months, and if [00:18:00] this happens, this happens.”
We can run our scenarios and really nerd out and get granular, which sometimes will scratch the brain of, um, a lot of, uh, pharmacists. If you’re my wife, she’s like broad strokes. Just c- ca- “Can I retire, like, at a reasonable age? Give me a thumbs up or down and keep it at that.” So we can get really granular and run models and things like that, but I think at the end of the day, we want this frigate that is our financial lives and our lives in general to be coasting towards the goals and the things that are most important to us.
And if they’re not, we have to course correct, right? And we can be very precise or we can just say, “Hey, head north and keep going north.” So, but that’s what the plan does is allows us to, to really zero in on the things that are most important. And you know, I would argue all of these phases are really, really important, but I would argue that this optimization phase is where I think you can really start to see exponential growth, not just in the numbers, but then [00:19:00] I, I also think, you know, the, the way that we live our lives.
Here’s another example. I feel like in this population of people, they are m- they are a lot more likely to say no to things. S- I, I come across so many pharmacists where my biggest piece of financial advice or my biggest piece of advice is not financial, it’s just advice in general. Stop saying yes to everything that’s being asked of you.
Start saying, like, have the courage to say no. And part of that’s courage and confidence, but a lot of pharmacists are built to want to, you know, just please and go over the top and deliver. And I get that, but a lot of people in this optimization is like I’m, I’m, I’m– I’ve been burnt out before or I’m comfortable in my own professional shoes or, you know, it doesn’t have to be professional.
It could be on the personal side too where I’m like, where I can say like, “Hey, I really appreciate you thinking of me for this, but this, this is not– I– right now I can’t do that.” Um, and I think that’s really important too, [00:20:00] um, is to really be able to, you know, sift through the things that are vital to you and what you’re trying to accomplish and then, you know, cut away the things that are not Yeah, and I think we’re coming at the same thing from a few different angles, but sep- separate podcast maybe we can- Mm-hmm
we can dive deep on this. But I, I think the pharmacist personality trait you just described there, and of course we’re, we’re, we’re generalizing, which isn’t fair, you know, to everyone. I really attribute to that, like when, when I think back to when I was in school- Yep … okay, so ear- early 2000s, the doctorate pharmacy degree.
Yep. We moved from the bachelor’s to the PharmD. There’s even discussions at the time about required residencies, like mandatory residencies into certain practice settings, national organization even kind of, or a couple national organizations really moving in that direction. Passage of the Medicare Modernization Act, we have pharmacist roles that are expanding.
But there’s always been, as long as I’ve been in school and in training, there’s [00:21:00] always been this sense of like proving our value and worth at the table. Like needing to justify that we belong on the healthcare team, or we belong not only in the eyes of the other healthcare professionals, but we belong in the eyes of the value from a patient perspective and from a payer perspective, which we’re still struggling with today.
Yeah. And while we have made great strides in that, like I think we’ve raised a generation or two or three, I don’t know how many, of pharmacists where, you know, we’re- we’ve been constantly trying to prove that we need to have a seat at the table, and I think that bleeds. I think it bleeds. Do, do you think that is, it, it, is that, and maybe this is another topic we dis- we should discover or uncover a little bit more, but it’s almost, I don’t, it’s almost like a strand of imposter syndrome.
It’s like I need to over-deliver and excel to, yeah, to prove that I, I know what I’m talking about or I have a seat at the, the table. I, you know, I can, I’m just as capable of it as any [00:22:00] provider, et cetera. It’s almost like, it’s almost like that. And, and again, like that’s not a bad thing, but it can run awry, right?
I, you know, I’ve had some, some personal conversations, and sorry for the tangent, but I thought I had some personal conversations, um, with people close to me and, and this is more around like hours at work and just amount of time that they’re putting in. And, you know, those things are important in sprints.
But if that comes your, your day-to-day, I, I just think it’s, I, I just think it’s wrong. I, I, and I, and I, I, I read a, I read a book recently, um, The NVIDIA Way. Uh, it, it’s basically about like the rise of NVIDIA and, you know, how they’re, how they became the most valuable company in the world- And they were talking about the founder and, and basically, like, his work ethic and, you know, he made it– the, basically the, the book was like th- saying about the founder like, “I o- I work every day.
I [00:23:00] work every single day. There- I don’t stop working, and I expect the people to work for me to do the same.” And I’m just like, I don’t know, I’m like, “Life is too short. It’s too freaking short, Tim. It’s too short to be punching a clock every day.” And I’m not saying that, like, hard work and, and taking pride in what you do is not important, but if your identity is so en- enveloped in what you do as a founder of a company or a pharmacist, I just think that that is a life that’s unexamined and it, and it, and it really needs to be, I think, tested.
And there’s nothing wrong with that in sprints at all. But I, I look at that and I don’t wanna say, like, I lose respect for that person, but you know, it’s just, I just, I kinda feel sorry. You just are caught up in… And, and it goes back to that, a little bit of that yes mentality of like, “Yeah, I can take on more, I can take on more.”
Unfortunately, we’re seeing this a lot in academia, Tim, you know- Yeah, totally … pharmacists that are in acadend- [00:24:00] demia because we know that student enrollment is down, so they’re not necessarily backfilling, you know, professors and those types of positions that are being f- you know, that are being, um, that are leaving.
So just, there’s, it’s just more. And even though you have less students, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the job’s any less. So we have this, you know, this perpetual state of, like, work. And, you know, hopefully in the optimization stage to kinda tie it back in here, you’re a little bit more comfortable, say like, “Hey, this is a no-go for me,” right?
I have other things that I wanna do with my life, like spend it with my family or travel or things like that, that it, it’s not gonna be, you know, 100% or even 90% work. So I know we’re kinda bouncing all over the place, but you know, I just, you know, these are things that often bother me, um, when I, when I see.
And I, and I think in some, some, in some cases, like, we help with that, um, because we do look at career and, and, you know, what’s a better fit [00:25:00] and, and the trajectory of that and, you know, obviously we work with almost entirely pharmacists. We do have non-pharmacists, but, like, we can kind of see the tenor of, you know, how people kind of move through life and, you know, how their employment can really affect things.
And, um, that’s why I said it is, you know, to kind of tie it back to, it can be tr- you know, to tie it back to the retirement conversation that we started this with. It, it can be very, um, fluid, and I think for a lot of people, we don’t see that. It’s kind of that whole end of history thing that we’ve talked about earlier.
It’s like we just feel like the pr- here and now is gonna be what it is in, in five years. And, and we know that’s not the case. Um, we just, our brains are not built to be able to kind of reconcile that, um, which is interesting. Yeah, and this is why, you know, from a planning perspective, after we go through or get organized with our client to make sure, right, we have all the information, we can see all the different pieces- Yeah
that are out there. Scrip- script your plan, right? Where w- where do we wanna go? Why do we wanna go there? [00:26:00] And, uh, what, what’s coming up as you’re talking that is very much connected to the retirement conversation is Simon Sinek’s work with start with why and the golden circle, where you’ve got the why in the center, then the next circle is the how, and the next circle is the what.
A- and I think so often in the retirement section of the financial plan, we, we can be having all these great conversations around the what. What account should I be saving, right? W- what’s the amount that I need to have to get to, to retired? Uh, you know, what, what are the ways that I’m gonna build my retirement paycheck?
We talked about that in the last episode. You know, what’s the asset location w- And these are all great conversations, and they’re, they’re really important. But why, right? That, that’s what we’re trying to get at here in this first question around retirement timeline. What, what does that term retirement mean to you, right?
Why do you wanna retire? Uh, is retirement even the best word? You know, is it really more of like a work optionality is what we’re talking about? Yeah. And that, that might mean that you love what you’re doing, [00:27:00] but because there’s a financial plan there to maybe mathematically support at the age of 55 or 57 or 63, whatever it is, you don’t have to work.
You might choose to continue to do that for whatever reason, either in a full-time or in a part-time capacity or in a different capacity. A- and so I think the, the question we’re trying to challenge the listeners with is, like, what does retirement mean to you? Why do you wanna retire? What, what does that look like?
Not, not just because it’s something we should do at a certain age, uh, but because we have intentionally thought about it. And then from there, we can start to build the plan and, you know, look at things like mid-career optimization, whether it be asset location or catching up on certain contributions, um, making sure we’re, we’re looking at the different buckets, right?
Things that we’ve talked about on the show. But a- and certainly, savings in this phase are gonna have a big impact on our long term. But really taking a step back, especially for those that have been actively saving, to say, “Where are we going? Why are we going there?” And then let’s start to [00:28:00] build more of the what around it Let’s, let’s talk about a different topic around the, the mortgage decision.
I, I, I don’t think this is one we, we talk a lot about on this show, but if you think about the mid-career, 40s to 50s, you know, some have been probably in, in their first home maybe for 20 years. Others, maybe they’ve moved, you know, once or twice, and that will then of course impact where they’re at on the, on the mortgage payoff timeline, assuming a 30-year fixed mortgage for most people.
But this season, Tim, I think naturally raises a question of like, should I keep paying off the house as we are over 30 years, and maybe I have that mortgage that goes into retirement or, or closely thereabouts? Should we pay it off aggressively? Maybe I wanna enter retirement and, and not have this liability on my shoulders.
And I think there’s both an emotional and a mathematical decision here that’s at play. Yeah, it’s funny. I don’t, I don’t know. I guess my, like, YouTube algorithm has, has shown me some [00:29:00] videos on, you know, Dave Ramsey personalities and talking through this with, you know, a few other YouTube people. Um, and it got me thinking a little bit more about this.
And, you know, I think, I think- The one, the one place I would start this conversation, um, and I, I am very biased here, very much so, um- Because you wanna, you wanna enter retirement without a mortgage, right? You’ve talked about this before on the show. It, it’s, it’s that. It’s partly that, but it’s also, like, you know, um, you know, I think the Ramsey mentality is like, you know, if you owe money to someone, you’re, you’re, you’re a slave to them, is essentially like the, you know.
So, um, you know, the fact that my house isn’t paid, I’m kind of a slave to the bank that, that owns the mort- you know, that has the mortgage. I feel very little of that at all. Now, I’ve never paid off, like, a house, right? So I don’t know, I also don’t know that feeling of like not knowing [00:30:00] what it, what it is to like not pay a mortgage.
So that could, that could feel completely awesome and great. But I don’t look at my mortgage, and, and part of, part of it is, like, related to the numbers of, you know, whatever my, you know, and I’m gonna piss people off because they’re like, you know, it’s, I just got lucky with timing. Like, the mor- It’s 2.6% or whatever it is.
Um, like, mathematically, I don’t see myself putting any… I didn’t even, we were even going down the path of like, you know, if you make an extra payment per year, that cuts seven years- Yeah … off a 30 mor- 30-year mortgage. And again, Ramsey, they, they, Ramsey advocates more of a 15 year. Um, but I- But, but I hear, I hear you sh- I hear you sharing not only a mathematical with the interest, but I also hear an emotional piece there of like, it’s, you, you don’t view it as something that’s so constrictive- No
that, like, it needs to be gone, right? ‘Cause there, there is the, the two sides of that, emotional and the- Correct … and the financial. Yeah Like, I, I [00:31:00] am apathetic with that. Like, I don’t, it doesn’t- I, I’m r- I’m right there with you. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and maybe it’s because, like, I’ve never had, like, a note called or, or I’ve never experienced, like, where I’ve been underwater with a, with a, with a ho- Like, I’ve never experienced some of the things that I think has borne those opinions of really aggressively paying down debt.
So, you know, maybe that is, you know, hindsight is 20/20. I just look, I, I would just, I, you know, it’s not even about, like, invest in the difference. I would rather put those dollars and invest in my family and the time that I have with them in this window of time. So- That’s interesting ’cause a lot of this conversation stops with that analysis right there, right?
Should, should I pay down the debt or should I invest the difference? I think you’re bringing in an interesting alternative viewpoint of, you know, e- even at, and again, we’re biased, right? You mentioned 2.6. I think I’m at a three-year fix. So maybe this conversation looks very different in 20 years- Yeah
when you have a bunch of mid-career pharmacists [00:32:00] that are sitting at a six, six and a half percent interest rate. But, but regardless, you’re bringing in an interesting third point, which is e- even at, let’s say your mortgage was five or 6%, there still is this opportunity cost of paying it off early versus investing in the time and experiences today.
Well, and I, and I think the, I think the third choice is Or fourth choice is, like, the home that we bought when we packed up shop from Baltimore, Maryland and moved to Columbus, Ohio in 2020. I was like, “Hey, we’re gonna buy this house, be in it for a while, but maybe as our kids get older,” you know, kind of where they’re at now, “like, maybe we’ll move again.”
Um, so what… So again, this is us thinking that, oh, in five, 10, everything’s gonna be the same. Obviously, things changed a lot, right? Prices of homes skyrocketed, mortgage, mortgage rates went up. So now what was our home very quickly moved to, like, our [00:33:00] forever home. So the, the, the, the other option that’s, that’s not here is putting money into the house itself.
And really, a lot of the things that we’re talking about you’ll, you’ll probably not get back. Maybe you will, but, like, we spent a lot of money- At least quantitatively. Quantitatively. Yeah. Yeah, like, q- yeah, y- exactly right. So, like, you know, if we redo our, our, Shay’s and I bathroom, you know, maybe we’ll get that back when we resell it, but, like, that’s…
it’s really just so we have a nicer bathroom. Or we redid our backyard ’cause I wanted, you know, a nicer green space, outside space. That was really important. Will we get some of that back? Maybe. So I would rather, of all the things that we’ve talked about, you know, time and experiences with my kids and then, you know, get it, you know, improving the house because we’re not gonna go anywhere because of the, you know, we’re kind of landlocked, so to speak, because of the environment.
I don’t see ourselves, you know, doubling our mortgage payment just to have a slightly nicer house, so we’re really gonna, [00:34:00] we’re really gonna, um, you know, improve the house that we have, and we’re very, we’re very fortunate. But I think there’s a lot of people that are in that same boat, where they’re like, you know, there’s some people that are just trying to get into the ho- the, the, the market, which I completely understand that, but there’s a lot of people that are in a similar place where they’re like, you know, either it’s, it’s maintenance things that are coming up or they just really wanna improve their situation by, you know, renovations and things like that.
I would argue, again, partly if I, if, if the rate was triple what it was, I’m gonna have a, a probably a much different, um, you know, approach to that. But where the math stands and kinda where I see our priorities, I would rather spend the extra mortgage payment elsewhere, and that would be travel or some of these projects that we wanna do to improve the house.
And that’s, again, but that could change. It could absolutely change in, in the future And I think what we’re getting here is there’s, there’s several variables, right, that go into play. You know, there’s the, [00:35:00] there’s the mortgage rate, of course, uh, the length of, of, of the mortgage. There’s what, what else is going on in the plan?
What are the competing priorities? Um, you know, how much is the home gonna be an asset that’s utilized in, in retirement versus other assets that you have to lean… I mean, there’s just a variety of things that come into play here, and what we’re trying to do is just pose the question, right? You know, kind of where are you at in this thought process and, and how are you evaluating this, uh, in the context of everything else?
Tim, let- let’s talk about kids, helping kids financially. You know, I, I think there’s, um, there’s tension that naturally arises here, not, not only in the c- college funding. We’ve talked about that, right? How much is enough when it comes to kids’ college savings. We’ll, we’ll link to that episode, uh, in the show notes.
But there’s a balance of saving for kids’ college, obviously a potential implication on what we’re able to save for retirement if that’s getting in the way. But you and I are just on the front end of what feels like the really expensive phase of, [00:36:00] of kids, right? Not, not just college, but vehicles, insurance, maybe eventually there’s we- weddings involved, um, you know, grandkids at, at some point, uh, perhaps, uh, la- launching adult children, right?
All, all of these things and expenses that come up and again, this, this balance that’s there of us trying to prepare our own financial plan in the form of tomorrow and today, but also this, uh, question of, like, helping kids financially. And, and I know this is one, especially for spouses, partners, significant others, is very much influenced by how we may have been helped by our own parents, and then how we want to bring that to our own kids.
And if we’re on the same page, that’s great, but that may not always be the case as well, right? Yeah. A- and, and again, in that, in that root start phase, like the, one of the main expenses that you have that is, I think, viewed [00:37:00] differently is, is like daycare, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I make the joke when I talk to prospective clients, I’m like, “You know, we, we, we, YFP, we should open a daycare,” just because the amount of money that parents will pay for this type of care is, is, can be astronomical.
Um, but y- I think that’s, it’s viewed… So now, like, when you get in more to the optimization stage, and if you’re at the front end like you described, it’s like sports and camps, right? Like, um- Oh, gosh … swim you don’t think would be expensive, but like some of these tech suits that Olivia gets ’cause she’s a competitive swimmer, I’m like, “It’s how much, and we can u- wear it how many times?”
It’s crazy. Liam plays hockey, right? That’s an expensive sport. Um, so we’re starting to get a taste of that, but then I think, you know, you’re gonna continue down the path where it’s, yeah, vehicles, college tuition, um, weddings, things like that. You know, I think I see some uncles of mine that are like, “Hey, I, I’m gonna pay for the vacation.
Just show up,” right? So there’s an investment of, you know, time as [00:38:00] a family together that, you know, is related to your children. Um- There is so much, you know, ’cause, you know, when you’re, when you’re talking about spouses, like my experience growing up, um, and my baggage with money and how my parents approach things is very different from Shay.
So, you’re trying to overlay that. If you have siblings and spouses of siblings, like they have d- it’s, it’s just, it can be very convoluted in terms of like how you approach it. And, you know, the, uh, it- we talk about this all the time. Like, I, like I feel like we have a set structure in terms of how we approach things like college, but like we’re just making it up as we go, right?
Really, like we’re just, we’re trying to figure it out, um, and do, and do the best we can. And, you know, we look at our kids and, you know, what I’m trying to, what I’m trying to teach not just my kids, but also my nieces and nephews is, is the power of investing, right? So, um, my nieces will [00:39:00] clean our office, they’ll make some money, and I’m like, “Hey, if you put it into your investment account, I’ll, I’ll bonus, you know, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll put some additional money in there.”
My daughter, she’ll get money. You know, my dad gives the, he calls them tickets. He gives all the grandkids 10 bucks, “Come get your tickets.” So that $10 we can either spend it, or if you put it in your investment account, I’ll, I’ll essentially double, double it. I’ll put 20 bucks in there. And I’m trying to period- periodically have those conversations with them of like, “Hey, this is the amount of money that we put in, and this is what it looks like now.”
Like, that’s compound growth. Is it, is it hitting? I don’t know. It, I don’t know if it’s sticking or not. But I wanna teach that delayed gratification, um, and not just turn $10 into sugar and sweets, um, and, and plastic toys. So all of these- Gosh, you’re not, you’re not, you’re no fun. Come on, dad. I know. Yeah.
But all of these, um, you know, we’re just putting into this brew, and we’re stirring this brew with our spouse, with maybe our siblings who also have kids, [00:40:00] um, you know, in the community, depending on what kind of community you grow up and like what that looks like. So, you know, I think, I, I think just like a plan, I think having some forethro- forethought and structure a- about how you, um, approach this with your kids and, and, you know, I, I want my kids to know that we’re gonna help them with college, but I don’t wanna tell them an exact figure.
Um- And I want them to have skin in the game in terms of, like, uh, their college, you know, decision and where they go, and grades are important, and we are definitely kind of following that one-third rule that we’ve outlined in previous- Yeah … discussions about education and in terms of that. But, you know, the expectation is you get good grades to get a scholarship and, you know, we wanna minimize the student loans as much as possible.
Um, so there’s just, there is a lot at play here. And again, I think to tie it back into planning, to [00:41:00] have an objective third party, you know, I might look at money one way, Shay might look at money s- another way. You know, to have an objective third party that knows us, knows our goals, our values, understands the balance sheet, and say like, “Hey, maybe maxing out or getting the, in Ohio it’s four grand a year for each kid f- to get the state tax deduction for the 529.
Maybe that’s actually not a good use because we’re, we’re lapsing a little bit here on some of these other goals that are, you know, more, more near term. Um, maybe, you know, I- maybe we, we shift.” I think having someone in your corner like that is super valuable to kind of be able to navigate, which what, what can be a very emotional thing.
We wanna all want our kids to do well, but that doesn’t necessarily mean in just cutting checks for everything, right? We know, like, we know that that can create entitlement. Um, we, there needs to be some type of partnership, um, with your child at every stage of life [00:42:00] really, um, so they can be functioning members of society and really understand the value of money and why investing is important, but why investing in the here and now is important as well.
Like, I want them to be kids and have a good time, and not necessarily worry about this stuff. So, um, yeah, all the things, Tim Yeah, and I think you, you, you hit on why this one’s so hard, right? The, the emotionality of it is, is very real. Um, and it makes it hard to think about it objectively. And, and to be fair, there– it’s okay.
That’s not always objective. We’re, we’re talking about our, our children. We want the best for them. All that is good. But it goes back to the why question, and, you know, I- whether it’s something like kids’ college savings, right? What, what, what’s behind the desire? So if someone were to say, “Hey, I wanna fully pay for my kids’ college,” like, let’s unpack that a little bit further to really get clear on is that the goal?
What’s behind that why? And then, and then, all right, let, let’s put the plan together if that, if that truly is the goal. Or maybe we kind of uncover that, hey, there’s a, “I went to [00:43:00] pharmacy school, and I came out with $200,000 of debt, and I don’t want my kid to ever have to experience anything like that.”
Right. And maybe is that an overreaction at the expense of other goals being achieved? Um, maybe not. Maybe it’s somewhere in between. But I think in all of these things, whether it’s kid college or other activities that are large expenses, you know, really asking some of the questions, getting the plan together.
A- and I think especially with the tension and the friction that can come from some of these topics, the objective third party and the plan really is the antidote to that, you know, if we’re able to, to surface these. Let’s go to the other end of the spectrum, Tim. So, you know, obviously there’s the, the helping kids financially question.
There’s the difficult conversation and financial needs around aging parents. We talked about that briefly earlier on the show, the sandwich generation. Uh, a- and there’s a lot here in terms of, you know, not only the, the financial investment potentially with aging parents, but also the time investment, the emotional investment.
Um, are, are parents ready financially, [00:44:00] right? We talked about that on, on previous shows, uh, when we had Cameron Huddleston on. Mom and Dad, We Need to Talk is the book that she read. Are, are our parents in, you know, a good financial position? And I think especially for those that are going through really good comprehensive financial planning, that’s a natural question that, you know, comes to surface as you’re going through all the different parts of your own financial plan, uh, and maybe uncovering some things that you weren’t aware of there.
Everything from, you know, the things we’d expect around investing or retirement planning, cash flow management, debt management, but also to estate planning documents and making sure we’ve got the right wealth protection in place and the insurance coverage and et cetera. So are our parents ready financially?
And if not, what does that mean for our own financial plan eventually? What, what are, what are the wishes, you know, of our, of our parents? So again, a lot to consider here, well beyond the time that we have in the episode, but certainly a piece that those that are in that mid-career phase are [00:45:00] likely entering into, and maybe even caught in between their own financial needs of their children, and also potentially caring for, for aging parents.
Yeah. So if you’re out of, like, the start or the roots phase, you know, and you’re transitioning to more of an optimized phase, you know, I think the, you know, the, the condition there is that you’ve had– like, you have an estate plan in place, which is probably, like, the, the lagging indicator for a lot of people for whatever reason.
You know, it’s not for– It, it, people don’t wanna think about their untimely, you know, death or disability, right? It just, it’s not things that we like to think about. So it’s often one of the last things that, that is done, although there’s a lot of people that it’s the first thing that gets done, especially when they have a kid.
Um, but in my experience, it’s, it’s typically a, a, a lagging thing that people get around to. I think once you have established those documents, you know, what we’re really– The next level of that, I think, [00:46:00] is, you know, um- The legacy folder where, like, if this happens to me, break the glass. This, these are where all the passwords are.
This is where the money is. Like, all, all of the th- like, it’s, it’s more, um, instructions versus just kind of wading through legal documents. And then I think as part of that, it’s probably conversations maybe with some adult kids at this point, um, and then also with some aging parents, um, in some type of order, right?
So, um, and I’ve recently had these conversations with, with my parents who are up from Florida. You know, my dad’s turning 80 this year. There’s some things that we’re navigating. Um, so we were talking about just end of life type of things and, you know, executor on estates and, you know, uh, different dynamics in the family.
Um, and you know, it, it gets into now where we have to [00:47:00] start thinking about, you know, h- how, if and how this will affect, you know, our family unit in Ohio with our time, our resources, um, you know, uh, living situations, that type of thing, that I think can often get, um, word until it is upon us, right? So, I think some of these conversations, um, should and should be had, um, without the undue stress of whatever is happening, you know, that kind of triggers these conversations.
So, you can ki- it, it goes back to planning, Tim, so, um- Not, no surprises here, right? It goes back to planning, and these are, these are some that I think are really hard, um, to do even with a planner. You know, I think, um, having a planner to, to help, you know, maybe have some conversation starters or, or read, um, Cameron Huddleston’s book, um, “Mom, Dad, We Need to Talk.”
Like, I think that, like, those [00:48:00] are really, um… ‘Cause so much of this is just the human element, and- Right … it can be uncomfortable conversations, um, that are difficult. But I think o- optimizing the estate plan that everyone’s on the same page, we know where everything is, um, not just from a passwords, but we know where policies are, we kn- we know where documents are, passwords, like all of that i- I think, um, the more that you can get in front of it, the better you’ll be when, you know, you’re trying to deal with an emotional part of your life, but then also, you know, adulting and doing the things to just to get through, um, you know, whether it’s care or estate stuff.
Um, so yeah, that’s, that’s the op- optimization side of this. Yeah, I’m glad you mentioned the, the human side of this, right? The, the estate plan is, is just as much about protecting people as it is about protecting assets. Yes. And I, I think that’s the, you know, thing as I’ve had conversations [00:49:00] in my own family.
Like, if, if, if Jess and I are doing what I hope we’re doing in our plan, it’s not about the assets. It, it’s about understanding, like when it comes to my parents, comes to her parents, like, do we understand what you want, what you want, why you want it, and do we have all the information to be able to make those things happen?
Uh, and sure, there are assets that are involved, um, but it’s really about navigating some of those more difficult or uncomfortable or uncommon conversations to just make sure that we’re, we’re not either able to follow through on what they desire and what they want or, uh, that we’re not left in, in the unknown, right, when, when those events, you know, happen.
And, and the same goes true for our own estate plan while we’re talking about this. That’s another element of the optimization. You know, our, our own potential long-term care needs and our own estate plan is an important part of this optimization, you know, phase as well. Then one other thing I just wanna mention that’s top of mind for me here, and then I wanna go into one last area for discussion.[00:50:00]
The one I wanna mention is just cash reserves and financial margin. You know, I, I think we, we often talk about emergency funds and we think that’s, like, a, ooh, foundational thing. Uh, but your emergency fund, your cash reserve needs will likely change as you’re going throughout your career. And I think this is a good natural time to say, what’s different now than when I first established my emergency fund?
If we’re shooting for that general target range, of course everyone’s situations is different, but that general target range, about three to six times essential expenses. Well, given everything we’ve been talking about, is our cash reserves position where it needs to be now, and are we looking at adjusting that on a regular basis going further?
The, the one I wanna end on, though, which very much is in line with the theme of the show, is this decision in our 40s. I know we’ve been talking about optimization, but I think there’s an al- also an optimization element to this, which is spending now versus delayed gratification. Um, and I know I spent much of [00:51:00] my 20s and 30s delaying gratification.
And I think the question here in the mid-career is when is it okay to enjoy what we’ve built? And that could come in the form of life experiences. It could be travel, could be reducing workload. Um, we’ve talked about experiences in our, in our family. The trap here, Tim, I think is we just endlessly move the goalposts.
And I think a lot of pharmacists are wired like that, I know I am, where give me the checklist, tell me what I need to do, I’m gonna do it, and then we get it done, and the goalposts shift. Um, and so in this mid-career, again, the question is, what- when is it okay to enjoy what we’ve built? I think knowing the pharmacist’s brain, I think where you get that feeling is actually seeing the numbers that support it.
One of the, one of the criticisms I might, I get from, for, um, a lot of pharmacists that I’ve worked with, [00:52:00] um, a financial planner, and there might be some people that are listening out there that are like, “That’s exactly me,” is they’ll go to the financial planner and they’re like, “All right,” like, “How am I doing?”
And they’re like, “You’re doing fine. Everything’s on track.” And But then I’m like, “Well, when do you want to retire?” And they’re like, “Well, we haven’t really talked specifically about that.” So maybe they’re just making an assumption that they want to retire at 65. That’s obviously, you know, if we talk about the other client we, we have, like 57, that’s when they retire.
That, we should ask that question. So the, you know, the, the, the question, you know, the, the, the issue that the, the pharmacist has with the advisor that they’ve worked with is that they’re just told like, “Hey, everything’s fine. You’re on track.” But there’s no– there’s nothing to prove that outside of just them just saying it.
And a pharmacist, in my mind, wants to see the evidence of that, right? [00:53:00] And, and that’s why being able to run different simulations and project that out, “Hey, if we part-time retire at 55 and fully retire at 57, there’s an 85% chance that you’re gonna have money in your plan at age 95 or whenever we det-de-determine the, you know, that we’re gonna pass away,” right?
Which is, which is still a projection. So- I think the, the, the overarching answer, a- answer to this question is, like, spend it now versus delayed gratification is when I think the plan supports it. That- I think that’s the answer. That’s gonna be different for everyone. Um, I think most people, they, there’s that feeling.
So, like, we talk about the problem with net worth, Tim, is that net worth is the best number that we should track quantitatively over time, but it’s not necessarily a number that we feel. The number that we feel is the money that’s in our bank account. [00:54:00] So, if we’re, if we’re past the student loans and we feel like we’re, we’re doing a good job maxing out our retirement plans, and maybe we’re putting money into our HSA and our emergency fund is fully funded so we don’t have to worry about that, there’s money lying around.
And I often get that, it’s like, “Man, we’ve amassed 80 grand that’s just kinda sitting there,” and I’m like, and they’re like, “I don’t know what that’s for.” I’m like, “We need to have a purpose for that money.” Like, it’s great that you have cash, but having cash is a problem, too, because it just erodes over time with inflation and things like that.
So, I think the answer to this question, it’s not a it depends. I think it’s when the, when the plan dictates that slash you feel that in your everyday checking and savings accounts. Yes. Yes. Um, now the argument that I would have is that a lot of people might get to that a lot sooner than when they actually kinda let go of the reins a little bit.
Um, so you know, I, you know, we, we’ve talked about your, your splurge recently on, uh, baseball tickets, or I think we’ve talked about it, [00:55:00] and there’s a lot of people that look, would look at that and be like, “That is freaking crazy.” And I look at that as like, that’s freaking amazing because I think that’s gonna be a core memory for your boys and your family of, like, the summer of, you know, baseball stadiums and things like that.
That’s priceless in my opinion, right? So, it is gonna be very much in the eye of the beholder, but I do think that there is some mathematical along with emotional, um, undercurrent of, okay, now we can take a breath and really, um, you know, prioritize today and not always look to the future. And then there’s some, for some people, it’s the opposite.
It’s like, all right, we gotta, like, reel back the spending a little bit and, and focus on your 60, 70-year-old self because we’re a little bit behind, but the math is gonna show us that, right? Yes. Um, so I think that’s the answer. I love what you’re saying here about the plan that supports it, ’cause even the baseball tickets example is, is resonating with me as you say it, where I, I [00:56:00] wouldn’t feel good about that if the plan didn’t support it.
And I, and I know that we’ve looked at these different aspects of is retirement on track? Do, do we have the right wealth protection plan in place? Are the emergency savings good? Right? Have we shored up these aspects of the plan? Because when there’s a plan that’s there to support it, I would argue that for many people, emotionally, spending is a muscle we have to build, uh, especially if you’re a saver mentality.
Yes. And so part of building that muscle is knowing that we have a plan behind it so that we can start to get some of those reps without all of the emotions coming flooding that we probably have felt in, in the early years of a scarcity of, “Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Am I behind? Could I have put this somewhere else?
Should I be doing this? Should I be doing that?” All of a sudden we put a plan in place, and of course that’s gonna be different for everyone, but then we can take some of those reps and feel confident. I mean, I, I wouldn’t feel good about the Wrigley tickets, right, if it, if it weren’t for knowing that there’s a peace of mind in doing that, and we’re intentionally choosing [00:57:00] to invest in that experience, and there’s a bucket for experiences.
Yeah. And we talked about that on the last episode. So great, great stuff and, and a conversation we’re certainly gonna continue. Tim, as we, as we wrap up, one of the things that, you know, is coming to mind as we’re, we’re talking about all these different areas from retirement timeline to expenses with kids to life experiences to aging parents is This is a season really of not only optimization, but navigating trade-offs to some degree.
There’s all these different areas that we need to be thinking about, whether it’s balancing retirement savings with experiences today, supporting our, our kids or our aging parents while we’re also working on our own plan. Just so many different aspects to be thinking about, and more than anything, I think it’s the intentionality and the plan and the asking questions that’s gonna give us clarity of how this all fits into the pieces for our own financial plan for those that are listening.
So Tim, great stuff as always, and, uh, we’ll, we’ll be back at it here in a couple weeks. [00:58:00] Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Scripted Wealth: Money and Meaning for Pharmacists. If you enjoyed the conversation, be sure to subscribe, leave us a rating and review, and share the show with a friend or colleague.
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For more information, you can visit yfpwealth.com/disclaimer. Thanks so much for listening. Have a great rest of your [00:59:00] week