Retirement is about more than having enough money. Learn how to plan for the purpose, relationships, health, and freedom that come after work.
Episode Summary
Retirement planning often centers around one big question: Do I have enough money? But reaching your retirement number is only part of the equation. An equally important, and often overlooked, question is: What are you retiring to?
In this episode of Scripted Wealth: Money & Meaning for Pharmacists, Tim & Tim explore what it means to prepare for retirement beyond the numbers. They discuss why retirement should be viewed as a transition rather than a finish line, how work provides structure and identity that can be difficult to replace, and why intentionally designing your days, relationships, health, and sense of purpose matters long before your final day of work. They also explore how the traditional definition of retirement is changing and why financial independence may be more about flexibility and optionality than never working again.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
- Why being financially ready for retirement doesn’t necessarily mean you’re ready to retire
- How to think about what you’re retiring to, not simply what you’re retiring from
- Why creating an “ideal schedule” can help you envision the day-to-day reality of retirement
- How relationships, purpose, health, and identity influence a fulfilling retirement
- Why financial independence can create flexibility and optionality without requiring you to stop working altogether
Mentioned in Today’s Episode
- Scripted Wealth Ep. 440: The Pharmacist Identity Trap: When Your Career Becomes Who You Are
- Scripted Wealth Ep. 442: Designing a Sabbatical Mindset Before Retirement
- YFP Wealth
Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] But I, but I think it’s a great exercise to kind of take stock of, like, okay, if we subtract out running kids to practices, if we subtract out going to punch a clock or, you know, doing the things that we have to do, like, what is left? And to me, those are the things that I think get lost as we go through life.
And it’s, it’s a way to kind of take an inventory, take stock of, like, how do you fill your day? Because I think without some type of, like, structure or some type of intention, we can get lost. Tim, in our last episode, we talked about creating some more freedom before retirement through developing a sabbatical mindset.
We talked about how taking some ext- extended time off can be a interesting window into retirement and what that might look like. And so I wanna continue that conversation today. And to kick us off, one of the things that I was thinking about is so much [00:01:00] of retirement planning and the discussion around retirement planning focuses on, do I have enough, right?
What, what is that nest egg number? How much do I need to have saved for retirement? But I think what is the harder question, which is not, do I have enough, but what am I retiring to? What does that retirement phase look like? And so question to kick us off here is Why do you think it’s so common that people can spend decades planning for retirement, but very little time planning for what retirement itself is going to look like?
Yeah. It’s probably a combination of a few things. Like, I think that we get distracted or preoccupied by, like, the numbers. So, you know, it’s almost like I kind of equate it to, like, gas prices. Like, people freak out when gas prices go up, and rightfully so, but at the end of the day, like, it’s probably a smaller [00:02:00] percentage of, like, what you overall pay to, like, run your household.
But you drive by it every day, right? So there… It’s, like, right in your face. So, I think the same is true from a retirement perspective where, you know, you might see colleagues retire. Um, you know, maybe you’re looking at your, your statements a little bit more closely. Um, you know, I think it, it’s… You, you might be getting things like, like, from Social Security or AARP, things like that.
So, I think that drives a little bit of the, um, you know, the, the bandwidth in terms of, like, how you view retirement. I think the other thing is, like, I think it’s just a bigger stressor. Like, do I have enough? Am I gonna run out of money? What are the unforeseen things? And I think you view it as, like, retirement as, like, you don’t have that safety net of a paycheck coming in.
So, like, what you have at the end of the day with, you know, before you retire is what you have. Um, and [00:03:00] I think that the, like, what do you retire to is viewed as… Like, retirement, as we talked about, it’s, it’s often viewed as, like, the destination, the finish line. Yeah. Or, like, almost like, hey, I’ve gone on vacation before and I vacation well.
I can, I can do that for a longer period of time. So it’s like, what could go wrong? Or, or I’ll just figure it out as I go. All right? So, I think some people do this really well with kind of, like, on the fly. They can kind of shift, um, and take off that, that hat, that pharmacist hat role and be the retiree, be the grandparent, be the, you know, maybe daycare for, uh, grandkids or, or whatever that is.
But I think others, like, you know, we’ve talked about in previous episode, it’s, it’s, it’s not as easy for some people. Yeah. Right? So, I think it’s a combination of just, like, what is in front of your face, what you’re getting in the mail, other people’s [00:04:00] experience, and I think we view the, you know, what I’m gonna do in retirement, I’m just gonna figure it out, and I’m just gonna, you know, maybe iterate and see what works for me, what doesn’t work for me.
And we know again that some, there’s a lot of people that struggle with that at the end of the day. Yeah, I was thinking a lot about this as we were going into the recording today, and, and I think as you alluded to, o- one of the aspects here that stands out to me is probably the, the obvious surface level, which is so much of the attention around retirement focuses on the number, right?
Yeah. Do, do we have enough? And we’ve talked about that many times on the show. The bi- the big, scary nest egg number that for some that are closer to that, that can feel very real. For those that are 20 years away, uh, even if you’re in the middle of your career, it’s still kind of fuzzy, right? Um, but I think if we go a little bit deeper on this, I, I have a hypothesis that I think focusing on the number, while [00:05:00] that can feel scary, is actually the easier work be- because it’s, it’s objective, right?
It’s not… I mean, it has an emotional component to it, but it’s a calculator, it’s a spreadsheet, it’s a target, it’s a number. I think when we get to this discussion around, like, what are we retiring to, and are we ready to re- retire, not just financially, but also in terms of how we’re gonna be spending our, our time and what that looks like, depending on our kind of in- individual situation, and obviously ev- every one of us is unique, I think that can be scary, right?
Because it gets into some of the other types of conversations like, well, how, how am I spending my time? Or like we talked about, uh, on episode 440 of our identity that can be tied up in the work that we do, right? Who, who, who am I independent of the work that I do? Who, who am I independent of raising my kids or being a spouse, right?
[00:06:00] And, and what do my relationships look like? How am I spending my time in terms of hobbies or pursuit of other things? And I, I think that can be scary, uh, in some situations. And we’ll talk a little bit about preparing for that here in a bit, but I’d love to just hear your reflection on that, right?
Because I, I think that the financial stuff is very– of course, it’s real. Um, but it’s somewhat objective as well. Yeah. You know, I think it, you know, to your point, you know, what am I retiring to I think is, is more of an abstract con- construct ver- versus like, I need $2 million in my IRA, you know, 401combo for me to…
Like, I- that’s easier for most people to wrap their brain around, I think for a pharmacist, too, right? And, you know, if you’ve ever gone through, you know, trials and, you know, trials in life, like sometimes we don’t deal with those, so we just kind of [00:07:00] like we don’t process those properly or like we’re, that’s, that’s, that’s a problem for another day.
And it’s almost like, you know, if you’re, if you’re going through life, a busy career, family, marriage, things like that, like you’re just trying, a- at least this is how I feel, Tim, uh, you’re just trying to like survive the day, and you’re not really processing or Maybe not going that deep with yourself or even relationships.
Like, I’ve talked about this. Yeah. Like, I don’t wanna get to a point where the kids are gone and then I’m like, “Hi, Shay, my name is Tim.” You know, like, “Good to meet you again,” right? And that, that happens in marriages. So, I think what you’re, what you’re saying makes a lot of sense where it’s just like we, we, we put those things on the back burner and, and we’re like, “Okay, we’ll figure it out when we get there.”
And I think, I think success for more pe- for most people is, is trying to kick the tires on that before you actually get [00:08:00] there. And I think that’s why we were talking about, you know, whether y- you can take a mini sabbatical or an extended vacation or staycation to kind of mock what this looks like, I think the better.
You know, because, um, again, the things we talked about with depression and alcohol use, like, those things are real in retirement, and I think they’re becoming more prevalent because we just don’t talk about it enough. Um, we don’t talk about the life plan inside enough in retirement. We talk about, yeah, like is money, or is money gonna run out, you know?
Right. Those types of things. Are you on track? You know, what, when should you claim Social Security? Which in, in the grand scheme of things is important, but not necessarily im- important in terms, uh, as important, I think, as like are you, are you living a wealthy life in retirement? Um, w- what is, what is purpose?
What are, what are we trying to accomplish? Yeah. I think the, the, the be- one of the best questions that we ask throughout the planning process is like, what does success look like? Um, because again, that is, it’s [00:09:00] a very open-ended question that may have to do with money, but f- for the most part it doesn’t.
You know, it’s kind of more of an a- it kind of flips that script, so to speak, where the, the abstract becomes more real, and the support and documentation is the money. It’s not the main course. Um, and I just don’t think that we do that enough because I think everything… And again, uh, we talk about the pharmacist brain.
The pharmacist brain is checklists. It’s, it’s reaching goals. It’s, um, am I, am I, am I fully optimized? And a lot of that is more related to my taxes and, you know, do I have enough saved? Am I invested properly? Do I have a, an efficient portfolio? Um, you know, how am I gonna… Like, what does, what does Medicare look like year to year?
How am I gonna claim Social Security? And I think we lose sight of, I think, the, the things that are most impor- portant, which are the qualitative, [00:10:00] abstract concepts related to retirement Yeah, and I think the risk we, we run, I’m thinking about i-i-if the nest egg number, the retirement number is the focus, the risk that we run there is that we’re reinforcing the concept that retirement is a finish line- Yeah
and not a transition, right? That, that’s the mindset shift I think that we need to begin to try to make, is that retirement is a significant milestone, no question about it, but many people are gonna live hopefully 20, 30, 40 years in retirement, right? That, that is a big transition, uh, to be considering. And, you know, if we, if we have a nest egg number of 3 or 4 million and we’re doing all the planning work and we’re thinking about asset location, all, all the things, if we’re on track to accomplish that, we can run into the trap of, “Hey, I’m good,” right?
“I’m, I’m on track. That’s the finish line.” If I’m not on track, of course, work that we need to do, but again, we’re positioning that still as the finish line. And what we’re trying to do here is [00:11:00] merge some of the quantitative and the qualitative. And Tim, I think one of the things that’s so helpful here, and for, for those that are near retirement, let’s say within the next five years, I think it’s easier to put your arms around this type of exercise that I’m gonna ask you to talk through here in a moment.
Whereas somebody who’s maybe 15, 20, 25 years out, not so much. But even for that group, I still think this is very valuable because it, it helps you to think about, what are some of the things that I wanna be doing now to kinda prepare myself, not just financially, but also emotionally and relationally for retirement?
And that activity I’m referring to is one that you do in the life planning process around developing the ideal schedule, right? Because again, we’re gonna just be spending several decades, hopefully, in retirement, and if we view it as a finish line and we get there and we haven’t put as much thought into like, well, what, what does a mundane Tuesday look like?
You know, what does a mundane August look like when kids are out of the house, work isn’t [00:12:00] present, right? There’s a lot more capacity for time. Talk through a little bit more about that exercise as a part of the life planning process and why that’s so valuable and what can come to life from that. Yeah. So you kind of read my mind, Tim, so ideal schedule.
Fre- fresh off the fr- uh, press, I, I printed this this morning, kind of in anticipation of my sabbatical and, like, going through, you know, what this actually looks like. So for people that are not watching this video, I’m holding up the ideal, uh, schedule exercise that we do as part of the life planning, and it kinda goes through the ideal day, um, the ideal week, and then the ideal year.
Um, and the exercise is basically to, you know, if you strip away, um Things like, and it could be work, but like, you know, what are the… How, how are you actually, like, time blocking or how are you, um, creating a schedule that would be absolutely ideal for you? You know, when do [00:13:00] you wake? When do you fall asleep?
Um, you know, are you sleeping in? Are you taking a walk on a beach? Um, and you’re, you’re basically… And I think, you know, I, I think doing this pen to paper is, is a, is a good exercise. But y- I, I think it, it brings to light, you know, how much how much of our, our time, especially in the accumulation phase, is really dictated by our careers.
And when you take that away, it’s kinda like, “Okay, what am, what am I actually doing?” So I think it’s a great exercise to slow down and, you know, go, go through and, and, you know, I think for me, I always make the joke that, like, the ideal day in, in the template it starts at 7:00 AM. I’m like, “That’s not me.” No, no thanks.
You know? No thanks. Now, for Tim Albrecht, absolutely. But then on the back end, like, I’m going to bed at 11:00 or midnight ’cause I’m more of a night owl, and you’re, you know, you’re, you’re already been [00:14:00] probably asleep for a couple hours. So, you know, to me it’s, you know, as I went through this this morning, you know, I, I look at my morning, it’s, it’s coffee and breakfast.
Maybe I’m making something on the griddle. You know, then maybe I’m doing some type of, uh, like movement or activity, a walk, gym, bike ride. Lunch. Maybe after lunch it’s a hammock and a book. Um, writing, maybe a home project. Um, and then kind of getting, you know, maybe doing some shopping for dinner and grilling something, clean up, maybe watch a movie, burn some wood, go in the, go in the spa, maybe a whiskey and a cigar, and then, and then off to bed.
So, like, to me that sounds like an amazing day, um, that at, at kind of the core of, um, you know, where I would be. But obviously that’s not gonna be every day, so maybe I’m volunteering, maybe we’re traveling. But I, but I think it’s a great exercise to kinda take stock of, like, okay, if we subtract out running kids to [00:15:00] practices, if you subtract out, um, going– don’t go in to punch a clock or, you know, doing the things that we have to do, like, what is left?
And to me, those are the things that I think get lost as we go through life, and it’s, it’s a way to kinda take an inventory, take stock of, like, how do you fill your day? Because I think without some type of, like, structure or some type of intention, we can get lost, and then I think it turns into some of those things, you know, that we’ve talked about in terms of depression or, you know, just unhealthy habits, that type of thing.
So to me, the, you know, the life planning process of, like, you know, we start with the three questions, the hearts core grid, the ideal schedule, and the goals for life kind of encapsulate this, um What is it that you’re passionate about? How do you want to spend the time? And again, it’s, it can be very, um, [00:16:00] adjacent or removed from the dollars and cents that often dominate the conversation when, when it, when we talk about retirement.
Yeah, I think we’re kinda o- operating under assumption that there’s going to be a base level of dollars and cents and a nest egg available. Um- Yeah … and again, we, we, we need to be able to, to, uh, ch- chew gum and walk at the same time, right? Correct. So, you know, even if we’re not on track financially, well, we need to figure out the plan to get on track, and we need to be thinking about these other things as well.
Um, and a couple things were coming up as you were, you were going through that. You know, I think that there’s a ton of value in the pen-to-paper of that exercise, right? Because it’s, it’s easy, in my opinion, to over-glorify the picture of retirement and to stop at that point, right? So as, even as you were talking, I was writing down the things that I, I would love to have more time to do.
Love to read. Would love to have more, more time to read. Would love to even have a little bit more time for vacation and travel, even a little bit more [00:17:00] space or margin for working out, more time for, for cooking, more time for family and experiences. Um, so putting pen to paper with those, like, those are all great, but even as you said, you look at one of those days and you’re like, “That sounds awesome, but I’m not gonna do that every day,” right?
Um, and so that, that gets to that kinda ch- mindset of, like, retirement is not vacation. I mean, there might, might be a little bit of that honeymoon phase in retirement. Um, but it, but it helps us also see, like, what are some of the opportunities now that we wanna focus on in preparation for that, whether we’re three years out or we’re 20 years out, right?
Because even as I list out those things, they feel amazing because there’s no margin to do those in this phase of life, right? But there’s going to be a lot more margin to do them that the time available far exceeds. Like, sure, I’d love to do an extra week or two of travel, but that’s not gonna occupy my whole day.
Sure, I’d love to read a [00:18:00] little bit more, but after an hour of that, like, I’m good, right? I don’t need to be spending the whole day reading. Um, so I think what it does is it, it helps me identify those things, but also it, it brings an awareness to, like, what are the relationships that we need to be investing in and prioritize.
E- easier said than done. Like, we’ve talked about this on the podcast before, like, you know, prioritizing friendships, obviously spouses, relationship with kids. Like, there’s only so much time and margin to do it, but that’s gonna be really difficult to pick those up from s- from Jump Street, or to pick up hobbies again from Jump Street, or habits or routines or rhythms, um, if we can begin to start to build those into our routine right now.
And I think pen to paper really helps that come to life of what’s this idea I have? What’s this visual I have for retirement? And then what’s the reality of what that might look like on a day-to-day, week-to-week basis? Yeah, and I think one of the conversations that Shane and I have had recently that we’re kind of, I wouldn’t say [00:19:00] diametrically opposed, but You know, she, she, she kind of, I…
But I think it, it’s a main driver in potentially what our retirement looks like. You know, she’s made the comment of like, “If all of our kids stay in Ohio,” which I think is unlikely, um, but, “If all our kids stay in Ohio, like, I wanna stay in Ohio. Like, I don’t wanna move somewhere else.” Or like, say they all move to Texas, like she would wanna go to Texas and be around like grandkids.
And I’m more of like, I’m more of like, “Hey, I can be there and be fun and, but then I’m out,” right? Like, you know, she wants to be more of like the, the daycare, and I’ve seen- No, no grandpa daycare? Right. Like, I, I don’t- Yeah … I, I’ve run that race already, right? That, that’s, that’s to me my, in my view- viewpoint.
But like, that’s a big unknown, and for me, a major thing in, like, what retirement looks [00:20:00] like, you know, and what’s the compromise for that. And, you know, the other thing you talked about is like, it, you know, you’re like, “Hey, I’d like to do more of this, more of this.” I think the big thing that we have to notate there is those are the things that you wanna do now, right?
Or can do now as like an able body. So, I think that’s the other thing that we have to ta- take stock of is like, you know, if you’re 60, you know, 50, 60, 70, you know, I think for the most part if you’re doing what you should be doing, like you can get around. But I think once you get a little bit older that those, those travel things that you’re like, “I’ll get, I’ll get to that one day,” like that comes off the table in a lot of ways just because you’re just not as, as able-bodied to get around.
Yeah. So, there’s just a lot of calculus to, to be done here. And I, and again, I think the, I think the, just like we talk about financial plan, like a financial plan, it’s more about planning than a plan. It’s, it, this is not a static thing. It’s something that we should revisit on the regular because, you know, [00:21:00] you just change your, you know, what you, what you want to do and the things that you, interest you now is not gonna be the same later.
Um, so you know, I, it’s, it’s, it’s really an exercise in being intentional with how you live your life and, and where you, you know, save and spend your resources. Um, that’s not necessarily a, you know, you know, 100% tied to the, again, to the dollars and cents. So, um, just interesting, you know, again. And, and I think the other thing I would, the other point I would make here is, you know, you, you mentioned, you know, the closer we get to something the more that we can relate to it, and that- that’s 100% true.
But I do think that there are things that we can do to extrapolate out to like- You know, one of the things if I, if I talk to a pharmacist that’s, you know, brand new out of, out of pharmacy school and we say like, “What does success look like in 30 years?” They’re like, they [00:22:00] can, they can talk about one or five years, but 30 years, they, they disconnect that themselves from that reality.
So I’m like, “All right. Well, put your, put yourself in your parents’ shoes, um, or a mentor’s shoes.” And like I find myself doing this now where, you know, I look at my parents and I’m like, okay, like success l- you know, maybe in this realm of their life that’s s- like I f- I, I view that as success, but maybe in this other realm of their life I don’t.
So I kind of take those… You know, I try to try, I try to, you know, pin myself to certain examples and then kind of overlay my own experience and like what I would wanna do to, to, to kinda create that timeline that’s way far in advance that it’s hard for us as humans to, to, to connect with, if that makes sense.
Yeah, I think that’s really valuable, right? ‘Cause it, it then allows you to think about the reality, which is we have a finite period of time. Right. Now, [00:23:00] maybe, uh, maybe that’s longer than we think, maybe it’s not. But, you know, that’s a great one, right? So when I think about my, my, my parents are relatively young, uh, so they’re in their mi- mid-60s.
But still, like, if I put myself in their shoes, like, I can look at this 20-year-ish window to get an idea of, okay, well, you know, that’s a barometer of what, what might health look like in 20 years. Um, you know, what might our situation… And what that does is it really helps with some of the picture of not just thinking about this as a, as a future day of, hey, we’re gonna enjoy and live our rich life tomorrow.
Like, we, we talk about that ad nauseam on the show, right? But hey, when you start to think about it in terms of a 20 or 30 or 40-year timeline, like, let’s do it. Let, let’s do it right now, you know? I wa- I wanna go back, too, to something you said when you gave the example of you and Shay, ’cause I think this is a really helpful exercise for partners to think through.
I was visualizing when you were talking about, you know, some of the things that you may enjoy or [00:24:00] Shay may enjoy or how it might be different. I was visualizing a Venn diagram, right? There’s the, there’s the Tim things in retirement, there’s- Yeah … the Shay things in retirement, and then there’s the Tim and Shay things in retirement.
And I think that’s healthy. You know, obviously, depending on what those buckets are, uh, a lot of discussion to be had there in terms of time and location and big decisions. But I think in the context of the ideal schedule, the ideal week, that’s a really good conversation to have, are, which is, hey, what, what are the things that I really want to enjoy doing, and maybe that’s solo?
What are the things that Jess might enjoy doing that are solo? What are the things that we desire to do together and we enjoy to do together, right? ‘Cause you, you hear some of these situations and cases where, especially if you have partners that don’t necessarily retire in the same timeline- Yeah … where o- one is used to a quiet house, and then all of a sudden, the other one retires, and they’re together all the time.
And it’s like, uh, have we discussed what this looks like, right? Yeah. Well, and that’s why, [00:25:00] like, in, in the life planning training, like, it’s really important to build out a life plan, um, for each partner, right? So you, when you go through the process, and we call it, like, lighting the torch, which is kind of creating a vision of the life plan, y- you do them.
You know, I might do one for you, Tim, and then, and then, and then I’ll do one for Jess. And we want them to be, you know, there, there needs to be some compatibility there so it’s not like you’re living on a beach and she’s living, you know, in a mountain, on a mountain somewhere. So, like, we, we have to find some common ground.
But they really should be, you know, independent of each other, meaning, like, you, you both, you’re, both of your visions of what, you know, that, that vision, um, you know, needs to be possible, uh, for, for you. So yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s interesting, um, because again, I, I see some of the conversations and I’m like, “Man, I, I don’t, I don’t really wanna be…”
Like, like I’ve, I’ve done the [00:26:00] raising kids. Like I– But there’s some people, like, that is 100% what– In Chase ca- you know, case, she’s like, “That’s what I would wanna do.” And to me, that sounds exhausting, but, you know, so we had to figure out, like, what that actually looks like, um, in the future. But the value is have the conversation, right?
Correct. I, I- Yeah … I have a hunch there’s a lot of unsaid expectations, right? And then, and that’s where resentment can build up and, you know, um, it, it just makes sense. Like, think about the percentage of time that you and Cher are together today versus, like, both of you are retired, or Jess and I are together today versus- Yeah
both of us are retired. I mean, e- even in the busy season with kids, we’re, yeah, sure, we’re doing a lot of things together, but, you know, oftentimes, especially with the four boys, we’re divide and conquer, right? So, you know, how much time really from 6:00 AM to 10:00 PM, like, what percentage of the day are we together?
Um, and of course, that looks different on the weekends or vacation, but I think these are all just good things, you know, to be thinking about. One of the other conversations I wanna have is [00:27:00] I think it’s important we define what does retirement mean? Right? Because not only does the plan depend upon it in terms of how much do we need, what are the potential buckets in which we’re gonna save, um, you know, how much in each of those buckets, and eventually how are we gonna withdraw from those buckets, timing of Social Security, all, all the things that would depend upon it.
But what does the definition of retirement mean? And, and making sure we’re not operating under the assumption that it means the same thing for everyone, right? You know, does it mean a traditional timeline to retirement, and what does that mean? Is that 63? Is that 65? Um, is it early retirement, and if so, why?
I think it’s important to define the why, not, not just a, uh, I, I want to stop working, right? But what am I retiring to, especially since we’re gonna have a longer timeline to retirement. Is that 57? Is that 55? Is that 53? What does that mean? Um, [00:28:00] and a lot of variations in between, right? Could, could it be that you go from full-time work, you say, “Hey, I’m gonna work full-time to 55, but then I enjoy what I wanna do, but I wanna have a little bit more flexibility, a little bit more freedom, and I don’t wanna do it at the same pace, so I’m working part-time,” and what are the implications of that, right?
And then of course, if we have two partners involved, like what, what do those look like individually, and then what does that mean collectively for the plan? So perhaps stating the obvious here, but I, I think that especially in a field like pharmacy where there’s so many opportunities to do part-time work, consulting, right, hourly type of work that can shift over time, that it’s important we define what that retirement means, right?
‘Cause so much of the plan is gonna depend on that. Yeah, and I can say, like growing up Like, I, I felt like retirement was more of the, like, the destination where, you know, I grew up in New Jersey, so it was get to 60 or 65 or somewhere in between those [00:29:00] ages, completely stop work, snowbird. You know, most– a lot of people in New Jersey will retire to Florida, do that for a couple years, and eventually sell the north, you know, the, the Jersey spot, and then fully retire, you know, in, in a community in, in Florida somewhere, which is kind of like what my parents did, more or less.
Um, I just think it’s so much more nuanced, and there’s just so much more gray today, um, for a variety of reasons, right? So, like, unfortunately, I’ve be- I’ve been seeing just a lot more stories of, like, old– like in the older generation, baby boomers, like going back to work. Yeah. Not because they want to, but because they have to.
Mm-hmm. ‘Cause they, you know, didn’t, you know, do enough of the, the, the, the numbers focus, X’s and O’s. You know, it was kind of hand-to-mouth, um, in terms of like how they lived their, their life, you know, in the accumulation phase. Some people are just going back to work because they d- they haven’t done the work in terms of like what are they retiring to, so they kind of lost that structure [00:30:00] and they…
And that’s, again, that’s not a bad thing. Um, you know, I think, I think the sandwich generation, which w- that we’ve told is like you’re being kind of pulled both from maybe, you know, dependents that are your children, but also dependents that may be your parents now. Um, so I think that’s, that’s changing. I think we’re seeing more encore careers and, and twilight careers.
I think you’re seeing more people travel, um, in retirement, which I think is a good thing because I think there’s just more of an industry around retirees and travel and communities. I think you’re seeing me- more medical tourism because Our healthcare expenses have got, gone, gone awry. Um, so people can get, you know, better care, you know, maybe in Mexico or Canada, that type of thing.
But, you know, I think, I think an- another important exercise is to kind of almost, like, go through that checklist and be like, okay, like, what interests you? Like, do you want to full stop working? And I think most people, you know, especially if they feel burnt out by their career, they’re like, [00:31:00] “Absolutely.”
But I think there is a honeymoon period of that, and they’re like, “Okay, well maybe I wanna consult.” Yeah. Or, or, or maybe, like, I wanna get more involved with, like, my state association- Yep … and, and, and be more of a mentor or a voice there, or maybe it’s more involvement in your church or community or, um, you know, teaching classes, things like that.
So I think it’s, I think it’s good to kind of look through those things that are available to you in terms of, like, outlets and that provide structure and meaning and purpose. And again, you might, you might… I- I’ve- I’ve read people that have, like, sold their companies and have made millions of dollars, and then they play Xbox for a year and just relax ’cause they’re so burnt out and they’re like, “N- I need to start another company.
I need to…” You know? And, and then they’re burnt out from playing Xbox. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. So I think, you know, again, it’s, it’s kind of more of… And that, like, that’s okay to do that, to, like, retire at 62 and then just, like, chill. Like, that’s fine. Or, or travel, like, you know, [00:32:00] like you never did before. Like, I think that’s fine, too.
But- To me, it goes back to planning, and a- and again, it, it, it can very much be from a dollars and cents perspective, but just, like, from a life plan, um, what is it that drive– what is a wealthy life today? What is a la- wealthy life tomorrow? And, like, what’s, what’s driving you? And I think, I think understanding that retirement isn’t a, it’s a, it’s, it’s a patchwork.
It’s not this finish line that you’re, you know, you see on a, on a commercial where you’re sitting on a beach, you know, drinking, um, cocktails. Like, that’s, that’s maybe a portion of your retirement, but that’s also maybe a portion of your, your career right now. So I, I think this, this picture is sold that is more black and white than I think than what is actually a reality in terms of the nuance of how you spend your time and dollars in, you know, post-career.
So I look at retirement, Tim, to kind of a- actually answer the question. I [00:33:00] look at it as just the ability not to rely on a paycheck day to day. Like, that to me is, like, that’s the simplest of the de- the definition. I, I, I’m so glad you said that ’cause I, I think that, you know, even as you talk about burnout, right?
I was thinking about what, what is the formula for burnout, right? It is a less than ideal work environment, and that could be for a variety of reasons. That could be the, the culture of the organization. That could be the people you work with. That could be the patients you serve. Combination of all the above, right?
Misalignment of interests with role. I mean, a lot of things of a, that could be categorized as less than ideal work environment. It’s that plus needing to be financially dependent on that less than ideal work environment. To me, that is where so often burnout comes from when I talk with pharmacists, is that I’m in an environment that is not ideal for whatever reason, but I’m financially dependent on the paycheck associated with being in that environment, right?
And, and I think when we [00:34:00] dig deeper, often what people are yearning for when we talk about retirement is options, flexibility, independence, whatever word we wanna use. And it may not necessarily mean not working, but things can, can change significantly when you’re working because you want to, or you’re- Yeah
working because you’re in an environment that maybe you can take a little bit of a, a pay cut, or you can work part-time or whatever because you’re at a point of financial independence that you’re no longer dependent on or in need of that, that paycheck, right? I, I think that the optionality, the flexibility is often what I’m hearing is the desire.
Um, and so how, how do we plan that? Because I think a lot of things can change. Like, you know, you, you asked me I think a week or two in the office, you’re like, “Hey, Tim, when, when do you wanna retire?” Right? “When do you wanna kinda stop doing this?” And I initially answered that of like, I kinda have this arbitrary age of, like, 50 in my mind.
And, you know, where that was coming [00:35:00] from is I’m thinking about, well, you know, at the age of 50, that’s seven or eight years from now. You know, three, three of my kids in theory are out of the house. My fourth is kind of on that pathway But I love what I do. So what I’m not talking about retirement, what I’m talking about, I think, is just the optionality or the flexibility, both financially and time, to continue to find the pathway of doing the work that I enjoy at whatever capacity for what then, what, whatever life looks like in that phase, right?
Because I don’t, I don’t know. You know, back to the conversation you were talking about of you and Shay and the kids and grandkids and where people live. Like, I don’t know what that will look like in 10 or 15 years. So if I have four boys that are in central Ohio versus I have four boys that are dispersed throughout the country and we’d love to travel and go see them, well, the level of flexibility that would be needed could be completely different.
So I think sometimes we feel the pressure to, like, define this, and it’s hard to define, right? When you look at what does 10 years look like from now? I, I don’t know. It’s fu- it’s funny, [00:36:00] you know, you say that. Like, I, I almost envision like, oh, like it’d be great to retire so then I can go and like, if O- if Olivia is at, uh, just making up a school, uh, Purdue, like I could go and like visit her and like watch a football game or whatever, but then like- You could do that now.
Yeah. And then, and then it’s like, it’s like, “All right, let’s party,” and then it’s like, well, I gotta go to class, like the week has started and like I’m high-fiving myself, and she’s like, “You gotta get out of here, Dad.” It’s like I’m not gonna be like on campus like hanging out with her. Um, so it’s like, like I- in my mind, I’m like, oh yeah, retirement, I can just like go and, and visit my kids and do like that.
But like they ha- th- and this is my argument with like the grand- like watching grandkids and being daycares, like, like my kids, they have to live their own life, too, and sometimes the family dynamic of like just being ultra-present can be good, but it also can be disruptive, and it’s just like this idea of like, I’m just gonna retire to tour the United States to visit my [00:37:00] kids and go to football games, and that, like, it just, it doesn’t really match reality.
The other thing that I would, I would mention, you were talking about burnout, you’re, you, you were… I think the only thing that I would edit in what you’re saying, a- and I brought this up before, w- it, it makes sense because we’re kinda talking about, you know, work and, and tied to a paycheck, is I just think that burnout comes from like an, like a, an, an environment.
So I wouldn’t even say a work environment. It could be a home environment. Oh, sure. Sure. S- so I, I think that’s one of the things that we conflate too much is like we always associate burnout with- job, but if the home front is not ideal, and that could be just a, like, you know, where you’re, maybe you’re going through a divorce or you have family members that have health issues or whatev- you know, or you have your own health issue or whatever that is, like, that contributes to burnout that we, I [00:38:00] think, lay at the feet of the employer too often.
So, and it kind of maybe goes on to, like, what we’re, what we may talk about next, which is like, you know, your, your mental health, your physical health, all the things that are really, really important in retirement, I think are just, you know, they’re also im- important in the accumulation. Because at the end of the day, there’s just so many people that I think are just Worn out because we just, there’s so much on our plate and, you know, we’re, we’re just trying to adult as best we can, but it can be overwhelming.
And I think, you know, oftentimes it’s like, “Oh, my, my job’s burning me out,” but it’s, it’s, it’s everything else that’s kind of ancillary to that as well. Yeah, and, and just to add on that, it also can be, as you brought up on, I think it was on 440 on the career identity episode, even in the workplace, if, if the workplace is the attribution to the burnout, that can often be self-inflicted and have nothing to [00:39:00] do- Right
with the organization, right? I think we see this a lot- Yeah … um, you know, with pharmacists and, and so, you know, are we kinda creating our, our own challenges there? Um, I, I do wanna come back to the, the health piece that you just mentioned, right? ‘Cause I think health can become one of the biggest assets as we think about the financial plan.
But I, I also want to talk about something that was coming up as you were talking about the Purdue example, right? And you were going to see Olivia at Purdue. Maybe that’s prophetic, by the way. Maybe she’s gonna become a Boilermaker, you know? Maybe. Um- I don’t know if they have a good swim program, but that’s, that’s how she’s thinking, so.
I think they do. I think they do. Um, but you gave the example, right? You go into the football game for a weekend, and she’s like, “Dad, get out of here.” Um, the, the, the thought that was coming up, though, is, like, when I think about, you know, answering that question of like, “Hey, when might you retire?” And I, and I say, “50,” and then I follow that up with, “Well,” you know, really what I’m talking about is just having the flexibility or the options.
You know, the, the thought that came right behind that is like, [00:40:00] we have that right now. A- and I think that’s an example of do we fall into this trap of that future state and, and, and thinking that this rich life to be lived is something that’s actually right in front of us right now? Um, you know, so, you know, we’re in a position of thankfully we own our own business.
You’re taking a two-month sabbatical. I just took a one-month sabbatical. We’ve got a great team. Sure, it doesn’t mean we can go do whatever we want, whenever we want, but like, is that not the flexibility like I’m talking about as a future state, right? And so I just bring that up as an opportunity, I think, for all of us to reflect of like, are we potentially describing something as a desired future state that in fact we have at least parts of it in front of us right now, but we’re missing it because we’re thinking about the future of it?
Well, and if I’m a pharmacist and I’m, and I feel like I’m kind of stuck in that, like, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m clocking [00:41:00] shifts at a hospital or wor- whatever that is, I’m, I’m, like, what you just described sounds like a perfect, like, tw- like, encore for here. You know what I mean? Um- Yeah … so, and, and, and I, I, I wanna, you know, just say that, like You know, like being able to take a sabbatical and like have that flexibility, that, like that doesn’t, it like that, that’s not afforded to everyone and we understand that, you know?
And, and I think that, you know, we’re, we, we’ve been very fortunate and lucky, Tim, with what we built and the team that we built and the clients that we have and just the, you know, this, this business has been great to us. But, you know, we talk with a lot of pharmacists that, you know, are, are seeking that, you know?
And, and I think that can be found within pharmacy, but sometimes not, right? And sometimes, you know, it’s, it’s really being intentional with, you know, the, the plan and, and how you spend your time and, and, and you know, how you, you know, navigate, navigate the plan that’s really important. And, and the career perspective is [00:42:00] very, is very important to this.
So, but yeah, like I, I agree with you. It’s, it’s almost like we’re conditioned to seek greener grass somewhere and, you know, it’s like I’m, I, I’m fine where I’m at, you know, in terms of like I feel like the… And can we get better in, in cer- Absolutely. There’s like, it’s not like we- Sure … we’ve never made, like we’re, you, you don’t make it.
Like you’re, you’re still iterating, trying to figure things out. Yeah, and I think, I think sometimes people that we work with kinda get caught into the, the web of like, you know, I have to do this to check off this list, to do, you know? And, and, and I think if we actually peel back what we’ve done so far and make course corrections that I think could free up time and flexibility.
And sometimes, Tim, in my experience, it’s just the capacity to say no, um, that often is a driving force of like, oh my goodness, like this is, this is so overwhelming. So again, I [00:43:00] think, I think it goes back to like intentionality in, in where we are at in, in space and time, and just looking at, um, how can we improve, how can we optimize?
And again, it’s not just a, a dollars and cents thing. It’s, it’s, it’s everything else. So, um, I’m with you. Like it’s a question that I think about or I’ve been thinking about more recently in terms of like what does retirement look like and, and I think probably ’cause of sabbaticals. But, um, I’m kind of more of a wait and see.
Like I don’t, I don’t really feel the need to pull the plug on anything, if that makes sense. Yeah, and a lot of variables that can change. Yeah. I mean, um, you know, what does it look like in 10, 15, 20 years in terms of our partners, our kids, our, you know, our, our parents’ health? I mean, so many things that might have an influence on how we’re spending our time or what that timeline is for how much we’re working and in what capacity, and of course, what the financial plan [00:44:00] needs to be to support it.
I do wanna wrap up by talking about the health piece that you mentioned a few moments ago, right? ‘Cause I think the, the question here, which maybe some of our, uh, financial nerds will, will roll their eyes at a little bit, is, like, what, what good is financial freedom, financial independence, achieving these goals, right?
If, if health is ultimately gonna limit what we’re able to do. And, you know, we talk about in retirement planning, all of the calculations, the investment returns, asset location, calculating the nest egg. We, we don’t talk about exercise, sleep, nutrition, right? And financial planning lives in a silo and, and so often does our, our health, but these are so interconnected, right?
As we think about how does our health intersect with, with our financial plan. What, what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I, I think, I think it’s one of the things you hear with, you know, from retirees that don’t prioritize this is like they wish they would, you know? And, uh, you know, anything, whether it’s your health or [00:45:00] relationship, it takes work, right?
You can’t just wake up and, and phone it in, right? So to me, I, I look at the health as like there’s some things that you can control, and there’s some things that you can’t control, right? So, you know, control the things that you can control. So, you know, a- and I think, like, you don’t have to be in the gym throwing around, like, large weight.
Like, go for a walk. Walking outside, vitamin D, movement, you know, I think there’s, uh, can be like a meditative thing in- involved in it if you’re doing it by yourself, I think can just add years to your life. Um, so definitely, like, m- movement. You know, I, I also just think of, like, you know, I, we, I kinda talk about, like, we live in a microwave society.
I think, like, just cooking your own meals and, like, that, that to me is, like, one of the things for my sabbatical. I’m like, “I just want, I always wanted to try to do X, Y, and Z,” so I have a list of things that I just wanna do. But, like, in the hustle and [00:46:00] bustle of life, now I, sometimes I do these on the weekends, like, I just, it’s just very much not that.
So I think that’s important. I, I also think that, like, it’s not just your physical body, it’s also, like, your mind. So, like, read, write, think, think about things. You know, I think meditation practice is r- r- also really important. Um, so those would be, you know, I think outside the obvious of, of just your physical health.
Um, but it take, it takes work, um, you know, for, for anything. And I think, y- you know, those are things that I think if you talk to retirees that are maybe st- like, struggling with their health, they’re like, “I wish I would’ve done a little bit more, um, you know, to pay attention to this, because now I can’t do some of the basic, you know, daily things of living.”
And it really impedes not just their day-to-day, but also their financial situation because, you know, maybe they have to just spend a lot more money for, you know, [00:47:00] uh, uh, an aide, a nurse maid, home healthcare, that type of thing. So, um, uh, it’s something that you don’t wanna sleep on, because I think it could come back to, to bite you, uh, big time in, in later in life.
I am excited to see where a lot of the tech evolves on this in the future, like to start to integrate some of these things together. So like I think about my own situation, you know, I track certain things in, in an Oura Ring, right? Looking at sleep patterns- Yeah … and exercise, and it e- even has an indicator of like, you know, what’s your actual age, and then what’s like your, your cardiovascular age according to your metrics, right?
Which, which would be helpful from like a financial planning perspective. Or you think about, um, what you’re tracking on like a Apple Watch or device, you know? Yeah. So we, we have all these different areas that we’re tracking, and they all live in a silo. Um, and you can start to see a future state where, you know, your up-to-date financial information gets intersected with these different aspects and, and that feeds into the planning process, you know, as well.
So may- maybe a business idea there if somebody wants to- Could be, [00:48:00] yeah. Could be … uh, to run with that one. So, well, good stuff. I, I, I think the theme as we, we wrap up here is, of course, we all know that retirement planning requires us to do the, the quantitative work as we look at calculating what, what is enough, uh, when it comes to saving for retirement.
How much is enough? Where do those assets need to live? What do we need to be saving and working towards today? But there’s also this whole other side, right, as we look at preparing for, uh, entering into retirement. It’s not just something that we arrive at, but something that we need to be designing, uh, all the way along and preparing for, uh, as well.
Coming up on the show, I hope you will continue to tune in, uh, to the podcast, and we’d love if you would share it with others as well. Coming up, we’ve got an episode talking about, uh, scarcity mindset, even among high earners. Uh, and then following that, we’re gonna be talking about early retirement, and is early retirement, uh, as good as it sounds?
So as always, thanks for taking time to listen and, uh, Tim, good stuff. We’ll be back at you here in a couple weeks. Thank you [00:49:00] so much for listening to this episode of Scripted Wealth: Money and Meaning for Pharmacists. If you enjoyed the conversation, be sure to subscribe, leave us a rating and review, and share the show with a friend or colleague.
It really helps more pharmacists discover the show and join us on the journey toward living a rich life today and tomorrow. And if today’s episode got you thinking about your own financial plan, retirement goals, or what a rich life means for you, we’d love to help. You can learn more about our fee-only comprehensive financial planning services by visiting yfpwealth.com.
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For more information, you can visit yfpwealth.com/disclaimer. Thanks so much for listening. Have a great rest of your [00:50:00] week